Let's ABOLISH the Welsh Language Act 1993 (diddymu, if you like)

With all due respect Mr. Dyson your comments about the Welsh Language and Welsh Speakers are at best ignorant at worst offensively racist. Imagine a different scenario: Black African Americans have just won equal rights in the USA and there comes along a white supremacist leaning newspaper saying that all this new equal rights is "so darn unconfinient because the pavement and the busses are now so overcrouded, it was better when only us whites where alowed to use the services."

Welcome to the 21st Century Mr. Dyson, the century where, hopefully, people will be treated equal and not discriminated against because the language they speak or the color of their skin.

We in Wales have struggled for years against this sort of narrow minded, old fashioned attitude and to try to gain respect and win basic civil rights to 'allow' us use to use our own language.

When I visit my mates in Walsall I am always impressed by the way Birmingham has such a wonderful mix of ethnic groups. I always think of Birmingham as leading the way in harmonious relations between peoples.

Presumably your paper would never allow such an unreasonable article ranting on against Punjabi or Jewish culture in Brum. Why o why do you feel it is OK to unleash such hatred on us here in Wales? How pathetic not being able to cope with a bi-lingual culture just a few miles down the road from you.

Mr Dyson your supremacist rant sounds like a Ku Klux Klan speech. Please - take the pointie mask off, put down the burning cross and chill out

Cyfiawnder, parch ac heddwch i bawb!
(Justice, respect and peace to all!)

Huw Jones

The next thing you will be suggesting is that Churches should be closed down because it causes the roads to get busier on a Sunday morning and this inconviences you! I agree with the gentleman who posted previously though I don't agree that any respect is due to you Sir Dyson!

If being in Cardiff and seeing and hearing the Welsh Language annoys you, you know exactly what you can do!

Cymru am byth!

BUT ITS OK FOR INFORMATION TO BE DISTRIBUTED IN UDRU , SOMALI , POLISH ETC ETC, WHEN FOREIGNERS ARENT EVEN BRITISH ! WELSH WAS AROUND LONG BEFORE ENGLISH SO STICK UP YOUR BIRMINGHAM

Hi Michael, Shelley, Huw and Rhys:
The blog was nothing to do with racial harmony, an issue which we Wasps, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews and Afro-Caribbeans stumble along quite ably with in Birmingham, thank you.
This is to do with the inconvenience and hilarity caused by home-grown political-correctness over-projecting a nice-to-have linguistic anachronism.
Those Welsh who want to keep an historic tongue going, get on with it... I respect your rights. And even put up the odd sign and celebratory message in Welsh while you're at it.
But the Act I refer to insists that EVERY blinkin' public notice of any kind has to be in Welsh as well as English. And that, in my Welsh-water drinking opinion, is bureaucratic nanny-state madness.

I know what you mean, Dyson, although you must admit you're purposely trying to be provocative here!!
The Welsh, or some of them, are nationalistic and love their own lingo. Some so much that they make too big a thing of it and get all offended/ignorant if there's no translation.
It's a bit like the Welsh Assembley... waste of money in many people's opinion.
But you are kinf of waving a red rag at a bull (or is that a sheep?)

Very funny!!
Baaaaaa!!!
The Welsh-boys, I ask you, sensitive or what?
Baaaa...!!!

Steve, what bit couldn't you understand, its in english for thirty seconds every minute, the announcements are also in english? ould you as a professional user of language cope with finding birmingam in such circumstances? Especially as on the welsh screen Birmingham is actually the same word unlike some other english towns, and the platforms are numerical. Fail to see how it was a problem for you and why it was worth a comment, bit of controversy to spice up a dull blog?

You're sad little empire died a long time ago, soon Scotland will cut you adrift and then hopefully the Welsh and even the Cornish are saying they've had enough of the english bigots like yourself!!

Rhys Llwyd and some others posting here represent one strand of Welsh opinion, and a minority one. Most Welsh people know very well privately that many Welsh signs are a piece of political correctness, but can't quite get round to admitting this to the English. Welsh is, after all, only a minority language within Wales, particularly around Cardiff.

Ho de ho ho, Anne Robinson, AA Gill, Janet Street-Porter etc.

David: you'll find French signs in the airport in Vancouver even though French is a 'minority' language in that area.

It takes a millisecond for non-Welsh speakers to recognise it's a language they don't understand and so flash to the Welsh.

Welsh is a living language - of kids, families, entertainment etc. One Wales. It's *nothing* for non-Welsh speakers to put up with a little inconvenience. But it's wonderful for us multi-linguals to be able to use it and see one of our languages being used.

Long-live our rich, diverse bilingual/multilingual culture! And long may we be like most other nations of the world in Wales - having more than one language. It's marvellous - embrace it, man!

Vive le gallois! Viva el gales! Ac yn y blaen. Na zdrowie!

" David said:

Rhys Llwyd and some others posting here represent one strand of Welsh opinion, and a minority one."

Oh, and by the way, this is a classic case of someone asserting something, so "it must be true".

And 97% of Davids are photocopier maintenance guys. Oh sorry, just because I said it on this forum, it *must* be true...

Speaking as a one of the tourist sort from across the pond, as our poor joke goes, I want to express a bit of my 'annoyance and frustration' with this terrible system.

Except I can't. I am neither annoyed nor frustrated with it, and I actually really like the presence of Cymraeg. It adds a culture to Wales that I cannot say England has, and it is quite frankly fun. I like to see what words are there, I like to try to prounounce them (and sorry to any Welsh folk who hear me butchering your language). Quite frankly, it adds to the whole experience.

Mr. Dyson, I'm not with you on this one. I'm eager for that 'daft' language you mention to grace my ears (and eyes, be it a road sign or a railway board) again. Why take away the culture from Wales? It is that same culture which sells tourism there.

Emma said:

"It takes a millisecond for non-Welsh speakers to recognise it's a language they don't understand and so flash to the Welsh."

Emma meant "...flash to the English."

Sorry. No more posts, I promise.

ok, if you don't want to see our postion david, imagine that french became the languege of england would you not get a little annoyed if a frenchman then said "all this english here in englad is so stupid i'm sure everyone can speak french by now"
welsh may be a minority languege but it is the original languege, and has only been weakend by english refusal to show any respect to other langueges and cultures not only in wales. And some of us here find it hard to speak english and understand it under pressured situations. so thank godnes for the 1993 act.

ok, if you don't want to see our postion steve, imagine that french became the languege of england would you not get a little annoyed if a frenchman then said "all this english here in englad is so stupid i'm sure everyone can speak french by now"
welsh may be a minority languege but it is the original languege, and has only been weakend by english refusal to show any respect to other langueges and cultures not only in wales. And some of us here find it hard to speak english and understand it under pressured situations. so thank godnes for the 1993 act.

Hi Emma. French signs in Vancouver are just as politically correct as Welsh signs in Cardiff. Surely a sensible attitude is "Yes it is a bit of a pain, but a political decision has been made to try to save the language", rather than an absurd language fundamentalist rant at complaints from the English.

Anyone who lives in Wales, as I do (do you?), knows that the language crew contributing to this thread are not mainstream. One or other of them has come across the article, told his mates on some Welsh language blog, and they have piled in.

Well who are these mainstream people then? Most 'mainstream' people in Wales support the language act and the introduction of the Welsh in public life. Remember it was the Conservative government who established the Welsh language Act 1993 and S4C.

Most 'mainstream' people in Wales support the language. Parents happily send their children to welsh medium schools (even in Cardiff there is a shortage of places)

Hi David,

Thanks for your comments. You are clearly keeping an eye on this thread, too!

Yeah, I do live in Wales, and I love having the opportunity to use the language. Being fully bilingual, I love the English language, too.

Yes, it's easy to get frustrated by 'fundamentalists' as you mention. I don't agree with all and sundry and like to strike a balance. I don't like crazy anti-Englishness same as I don't like crazy anti-Welshness.

However, a very pragmatic way of seeing it is: you sometimes need to have what you call 'fundamentalists' to bring us to the more 'common' ground we have now.

I have introduced many a friend to the delights of culture and real life through the Welsh language, mixing with people who don't use it as a political weapon but who use it every day as part of normality. We are not the people, though, who are normally vocal. So quite often, people are subjected to what they call 'extreme' sentiments. Sometimes my friends have been fearful of Welsh-languageness in the past.

Yeah, there might be a little more expense, and a tiny bit more hassle in continuing with the bilingual tradition of our nation.

But I don't agree that 'most' people aren't into this bilingual thing.

But why do people seem so fearful of it?

It's politics, generations ago, that essentially tried to wipe out Welsh. (Note: Catalan under Franco.) So I guess we need a helping hand from politics to help it thrive again. It's tough because Welsh is still a 'minority' language with 20% of the population speaking it, whereas Catalan has around 6 million speakers.

Anyway, I find it sad that as someone who lives in Wales, you say it's 'only' a minority language. Maybe it is, but it's 'our' language, and I, for one, love it.

David said:

"Anyone who lives in Wales...knows that the language crew contributing to this thread are not mainstream. One or other of them has come across the article, told his mates on some Welsh language blog, and they have piled in."

a) You're right in a way - I wouldn't normally read the B'Ham mail!

However...

b) It was Facebook, that well-known English medium friend bringer-together. Mostly normos.

That'll be 'dynion', Mr Dyson.

You can get Facebook in Welsh now as well.
As well as Windows Vista, Microsoft 2007, Internet Explorer 7, Mozilla Firefox, Open Office, Ubuntu Linux OS as well. I also hear that Nokia are currently developing Welsh language software for their phones.

Hey guys and gals, your language is great, I'm sure. But the Act makes a mockery of it by projecting it in everyone's face. That is NOT the way to preserve it.

Hmm. French is preserved in Canada. Er, yeah, but French is a major international language. Different league to Welsh, I'm afraid. Incomparable.

"David said:
Rhys Llwyd and some others posting here represent one strand of Welsh opinion, and a minority one."

This is the usual rubbish posted by the Anti Welsh Brigade, claiming that the supporters of the language are in a minority. It is simply not true and you are using misinformation and smoke and mirrors to try to get your message across. As another poster has said, the real truth is the "majority" of Welsh people support the language, the only group inside Wales who don't are the immigrants from england!
And as for you Mr. Dyson, if you don't like the language don't come here, stay in your own backyard and speak with that odd accent you have down there!!

Well, Well, this shows all too readily the typical englisg arrogance and "let's stamp on our neighbour" mentality. The same arrogance and aggressiveness that brutalized many peoples across the world in the name of Empire. Lets strip them of their language and "make" them speak english!!
What is the problem with you people? Why can't you live and let live!!
You'd do well to remember that Welsh is actually the true language of Britain, your language came after conquests from Europe and despite attempts over hundreds of years to destroy ours, it still thrives and if you knew anything about modern Wales Dyson, you'd know that the clamour for Welsh medium education is rising at a startling rate and still on the increase!
You're like a throw back to the knuckle scraping, thick headed idiots of the late 19th and early 20th Century's who tried to beat the language out of our School Children, it didn't wotk then and it won't work now, Idiot!!

Strange how some Welsh people are happy to distance themselves from England yet quite happy for their football teams to participate in the English football leagues and the English cip competitions.

Baaa!

While the Brits - and the Brummies especially - can be ignorami, realistically we should ask a few questions of ourselves...
A. How much does the Welsh Assembly cost?
B. How much does Welsh translation cost?
C. How much do FREE Welsh prescriptions cost?
D. This is the curcial one... how much is raised annually in taxes from Wales?
Now work out the conundrum: A+B+C-D=E
If E = a plus figure, then what are we arguing about?
DO we want to be a begging country?
Could we exist without London?
I think not, my Valley friends.
And so, we should be less intransigent about items like the Act referred to here.
With it, we feel like a protected species.
Without it, we're an imprtant part, but an integrated part, of a diverse island.

Hi Cayo. Ex Free Wales Army? Most Welsh people grudgingly support the language as a heritage thing, as long as they do not have to learn it and speak it themselves, or be run by siege-mentality language fundamentalists. Welsh speakers are undeniably a minority in Wales, and a large number of those who do claim to speak it are functionally illiterate in the language, in the sense that they would not have the confidence to write a letter in Welsh. It has been the choice of Welsh speakers themselves to desert the language, because of the narrowness of Welsh culture.

Hi Steve. I say "Welsh imperialists out of Patagonia". The "true language of Britain"? OK, get over to Surrey and tell them they should be speaking Welsh, or that they are a bunch of Germanic immigrants who should go back where they came from. Get real. You just make the Welsh look like a bunch of idiots.

Guys, the thing here is that while the signs are in Welsh they are ALSO in English, and it IS Wales. We DO have a language, and someone from another country has no right to make such a rude statement as "ABOLISH WELSH". If it were in another part of the world that would be ethnically inflammatory and before anyone accuses me of dramatising, step outside the square and see a member of the press from a dominant country stating that a country long conquered and for a long time suppressed should have no public demonstration of its native language. Forget the names Wales and England, and just think of them as 2 faceless nations in that situation and tell me that isn't ethnic cleansing of a sort? If us Welsh have an issue as to whether our road signs and other signage needs to be in one or both languages it's an issue for US, you have no right to say that Mr. Dyson. Sorry but saying that Welsh shldnt be shown in Wales is rather stupid. Not trying to cause a stir or insult, I just think saying that is really stupid. Who'd go to England and say stop putting signs up in English??? It's WALES, we have the Welsh language. I mean come on! Common sense surely???

Hi Jack. Ethnic cleansing? Grow up. If you think Dyson has "no right" to express his opinion in a western liberal democracy, try to prosecute him. Incitement to racial hatred? Right. For expressing a view on the Welsh Language Act.

We do indeed have a language in Wales, in fact we have two. One spoken by 100% of people, English, and the other by 20%, Welsh. Let's not pretend that the people of the south Wales valleys cannot understand English, and need Welsh signs to help them get on the right train home. Common sense says use English for signs. Politics and cultural sensitivity to minorities determines that Welsh is also used.

Anonymous above is me.

Hi David as a Welshman living in Birmingham can I say what a wonderful advert for your paper this editorial is.

Let’s forget the inconvenience of bilingual signage and just concentrate on you calling it a daft language which is ignorant and offensive. I don't think you would be so quick make the same mistake about your Urdu, Gujarati, Hindi, Polish, and diverse multilingual readership.

Welsh is a native language that pre dates the mongrel English Language and yet you wouldn't afford the same courtesy and respect to its speakers as you would to those of non native languages.

So I can speak English so what, so can a good portion of Europeans, I'm sure you'd like the signs on holiday to be just in English too but think you'll find most countries unobliging. What you forget is that it is (as in the case of many welsh speakers) my second language. I learned Welsh as my mother tongue and the English afterwards. I was lucky to be allowed to speak my own language many of my ancestors were not so fortunate thanks to the welsh not (html is sadly not one of my languages, google it!), and at that time English was not as widely spoken in certain areas of Wales as you might think!

So I don't think the welsh language act should be any of your concern, though you can have your views on the consequences by all means. I'd like to hope most people would find them trivial and self indulgent though.

Anonymous/dave said!!
"You just make the Welsh look like a bunch of idiots."

So what does Dyson make the english look like! Angels? Clever, forward looking people?, I think not!!
His comment "Daft language" is inflammatory at best!!
And your statement about the majority of Welsh people being against the language is rubbish, you're obviously not from the North and from the sound of it have never been here if you thin Welsh speakers up here can't also write in Welsh, what a muppet!!

As for you BrummieBill, how's the accent? Where duh yow com from??

Hi Owain. You are confusing me with the editor, Steve Dyson. I have not said Welsh is daft. If pressed I might say English spelling and Welsh mutations were daft.
The point about Welsh in Wales, unlike, say Germans in Germany, is that only a minority of the Welsh themselves actually speak Welsh. The Germans all speak German. This destroys your analogy. Of course there are many Welsh people for whom Welsh is their mother tongue, and the revival of the Welsh language is a legitimate political exercise. My irritation is with the bogus arguments (and please spare us the "welsh not" yet again) put forward by proponents of the language, particularly claims or insinuations that Welsh is "the language of Wales". This is true insofar as it does not (with vary minor exceptions) exist elsewhere, except in people with Welsh origins. However, it is not the "language of Wales" in the sense of the language used by most people in Wales day-to-day. It is no use pretending the monoglot English-speaking majority in Wales do not exist, however distasteful you may find their existence.

Hi anonymous II. In saying Welsh is "daft" Steve Dyson is either daft himself, or it's a wind-up. I strongly suspect the latter, don't you? As for the Welsh being "against the language", I have suggested that most Welsh grudgingly accept the greater prominence being given to Welsh these days. In the same sort of way that people grudging accept a whole lot of other things, like barmy Health and Safety regulations.

Welsh Language Act 1
Pompous English Editor 0 :)

Afraid that there's no chance of it being abolished Mr Dyson, next year will see transfer of more powers to further strengthen the Act. The joys of devolution mean that it doesn't matter what you think any more. You can whinge all you want. We make the decisions now. Now cough up for all that stolen water! ;-)

Fair enough, Ben Dramwnagl! As I inferred, we do owe you for the water!
And quite seriously, to everyone who has involved themselves in this mini debate, the blog was a bit of tongue-in-cheek comment, based half on genuine astonishment (at Cardiff railway station) but also half on an attempted humourous interpretation.
The point was to open up a debate, which it did!
But seriosusly, I always feel uneasy about nanny-state laws, and that was the point of my blog. Let the Welsh language exist and thrive if that's what it deserves, but why positively discriminate for it?
Long live the Welsh language. But I still call for the abolition of the Welsh Language Act itself.

Sorry Steve, but there are thousands of communities where daily life is conducted through the medium of Welsh.

I'm sure you probably think that people only start speaking Welsh in pubs when you walk in, and that it's a mechanism to exclude outsiders. But actually, Welsh is the mother tongue anywhere west of a line roughly from Prestatyn to Swansea.

Whether you think it's nanny statism or not, unfortunately the Welsh Language Act is necessary to guarantee these people and communities their right to communication in their own native language. Posters in these blogs often decry the negative effects of globalisation and multinational industry, so why is there so little recognition that Welsh people should be entitled to water bills in Welsh if they want them?

If I visit Italy, I don't expect Italians to stop speaking Italian. It would be nice if you applied the same thought process to Wales. As a Welsh-born Midlander who's been here since he was 18, I don't expect you to stop speaking English for my benefit.

Might I suggest that if you don't want to be baffled by Welsh, you could always learn it? Your challenge is to learn, within a week, the Welsh for "chip on the English shoulder".

You go to China the signs are in their home language,you go to Poland, the signs are in polish,you go to Bangladesh the signs are in Bangladeshi.
You go to many other country's with a language their signs are of course in their language,you come to WALES and the signs are of course in are native tongue.
So why should we change are signs to full on english for english people that are just passing through or because "They do not understand Welsh". If you do not like the signs being in welsh & English 2nd then do not pass through simple as.
Why should we change anything at the end of the day it is us welsh people who live here its are country so we should be able to walk down the street and see are native language around places.

Hi Welsh Warrior, Steve and others.
To tempting not to reply!
The difference between going to China and other countries you mention is that they have an established language, and the signs are already up. (there's no laws that insist on them).
Wales, like it not, is mainly English-speaking.
Those who want to continue (or start) Welsh should do so. But why go to the pains of a nanny-state statute that MAKES so many public bodies translate and display EVERYTHING in both English and Welsh?
A mad waste of money, and one that does nothing for genuinely keeping the language.

Mr Dyson, Wales also has an "established" language and while we accept that for the most part English is the main language although not in all parts of Wales by any means, there are still parts of Wales where Welsh is the main language; that doesn't mean that Welsh people shouldn't have the right to services in their own language!! It is a right enjoyed by others in their own Countries, why not in Wales??!
I just don't understand why it is that the English have this huge problem with Welsh but seemingly with no other language, maybe you'll only be happy when the whole World speaks English and only English!!!

The reason why the majority of wales speaks English to day is well because the English wanted the welsh language outlawed and by the looks of things that quest still continues you might as well just say BAN THE WELSH LANGUAGE full stop.
Take away the rights of the welsh people because they are a conquered nation blah blah blah if you have problems with Welsh Signs do not come to wales trust me you wont be missed.
Hell next we might as well have S4C banned because they speak welsh and after all the majority of channels are in English right?
Wales is a nation as a nation we should decide what language are signs or whatever has if its Welsh & English then so be it if you cant b "Assed" to learn very small amounts of welsh because your traveling through wales then tuff luck.
Why should we resort to pleasing those of another country? Why don't you get off your ass and learn small amounts of welsh?
After all the welsh had to learn English even though are country is not an English country but a welsh one.

Quote from Dyson:
"The point was to open up a debate,"

Why? To what purpose? Why should some editor on a rag in the Midlands want to open a debate on the Welsh language??
The only people with any real rights to debate the Welsh language is the Welsh people and maybe those that have moved to live there, certainly nobody else has any right to debate it!
Little wonder that the english are despised home and abroad, you should start realizing that the World doesn't start and end with england and it's language!!
Welsh and proud; leave our language alone!!

Chan eil mi a' tuigsinn seo idir. Carson a tha sibh a' reusonaich air seo?

OK, I'll attempt to continue in the English. ScotRail (bless its cotton sockies), some years ago, and before the Gaelic Language Act, decided to have bilingual signs on some of its stations. Not this to recognise officially the Gaelic or owt like that, but to make money. It attracts tourists.

Indeed, if you go to Shetland, you will see some bilingual signs with Old Norse, for the same reason. But why then such things as Language Acts for Welsh and Gaelic?

It is not about signs. Indeed, I suspect that the single-language street signs I once saw in Machynlleth might now be under threat, with them needing to do them in English too. It is about status.

How would you like it if we put the clock back about 900 years, when the last resistance to the Normans stopped in England, and everyone had to speak French to "get on" - that is, if you didn't speak the French, you were stuck as a peasant with no chance of betterment. That is how it was in Wales and the Highlands with English until last century. The Language Acts are a way of trying to make sure it doesn't happen like that again.

So, begone with your drivel about big signs and incomprehensible station announcements. The matter is a lot deeper than that.

But maybe, just maybe, the Welsh should get over it?

"But maybe, just maybe, the Welsh should get over it?"

And finally we see the true anti Welsh english bigot coming out!!!
Maybe, just maybe the English should start treating us as equals and not the inferior race you like to portray us as!!

Quote!
"But maybe, just maybe, the Welsh should get over it?"

And finally we see the true anti Welsh english bigot coming out!!!
Maybe, just maybe the English should start treating us as equals and not the inferior race you like to portray us as!!

CASE CLOSED...........just goes to show the ignorance of most English people still exists even to day. So mad little English man run along and stay out of Celtic affairs SAXONS not welcome..oh and some advice for your next article it could be HOW MUCH DO THE WELSH REALLY HATE THE ENGLISH? OR it could be HOW IGNORANT ARE THE ENGLISH MEDIA?

I think the present situation as described by The editor is disgraceful, and I'm glad he has bought this type of one-sided thinking out into the open.

I agree with Steve; it's absurd that 50pct of the signs and railway signage is Welsh/English at Cardiff Station.

What we want is Welsh signage throughout the UK, not just in the principality.

All stations and public amenities/highways should have signage in Welsh/English, but it should be Welsh 80 pct of the time, English 20 pct.

Why not ban every language that you cant speak then you'll never be confused when you go oustide england?

You must be slightly retarded if you find two languages confusing, especially when one of them is your own language!

Here's a tip if its so confusing stay in Birmingham.

Well stay out of Wales then if the Welsh language bothers you so much! Would you demand the same from the Germans and French just because you do not understand anything but English? I cannot speak a word of Welsh because I grew up in the Westcountry but it is their language and it is in their country so they have the right to have it there. I think it is disgusting that there has to be an Act at all. The English should just butt out of Welsh affairs and issues. The Welsh language was here long before English and my ancestors used to speak it until the English stopped all that! People like you give the English a bad name which they do not deserve because down this way they are fantastic about other cultures, races and languages. Perhaps it is a middle England thing.

Thanks for your water

whats that,the toilet water u get from us?

Your ridiculous comment on your campaign 'to abolish the welsh language' is both frustrating and insulting.
Why is it that you have a problem with train station signs being in welsh/english but yet if you went to a country like Poland, you would not complain about their use of polish/english signs? Would you also campaign for the polish language to be abolished? I do not think so.
To be honest, us welsh speakers find articles such as yours ignorant. We have the upmost respect for our language and do not appreciate people such as yourself wanting us to keep quiet about our love for the welsh language. At the end of the day, England has no language that they can call 'unique' so please show at least an ounce of respect towards a language that has been ours for centuries.

Oh, and by the way, your 'comment' about 'weird academic qualifications' being of no use is nonsense. Do you have any idea of the demand there are for welsh speakers in careers today? and how much employers are willing to pay a big sum of money to have them?
Obviously not.

Welsh language experts? What for? Guess we could list Welsh occupations.
Er...
Coal mining?
Er...
Cheese-making?
Er...

Er...
Subtitling
Er...
School Teacher
Er...
Weren't the welsh also used in world war 2 to send encrypted messages since the nazis couldent understand welsh they had welsh people send the messages hmm......ignorance really does show in you english

Hey guys, ler's not turn this into an anti-Welsh blog. No disparaging comments about Welsh employment, etc, please, as I know from history that the Welsh are as hard-working, and as heroic, as anyone.
My original blog stands... that is, a question over the 1993 Welsh Language Act. Happy for debate on that. I think it should be challenged. Others don't.
That's the limit of my feeling though. Wales is a great place with great people... I'm just unsure that this act is doing them any favours.

Quote: "I'm just unsure that this act is doing them any favours."

And who exactly are you to decide that? It has nothing to do with anybody outside Wales, who are you to say that Welsh people can't have services in their own language?
This is an attitude right out of the 50's and 60's where the Welsh language was frowned upon, most of us had thought the English had moved on from it, sadly it appears not!!
I guess you and your ilk are the same sort of Englishman that goes to Spain and demands English food and that the locals speak English for fear that they're talking about you, you are pathetic!!
Again, what goes on in Wales has nothing to do with you Dyson, so butt out!!

Hi Chris:
I am exactly no-one to decide, you're right.
But comment is free, and this is my opinion on a blog comment, with the door open for opposing opinions.
Would you prefer to stamp out anyone who opposes any law, however nutty that law seems to be to them?

Again, What happens in Wales has nothing to do with you, period!!
I dare say you wouldn't dare say such a thing about the multiple langauges being spoken in the Midlands would you! You saw a soft target, you took it and have been stung by the result, not what you expected was it? You probably thought albeit naively that your comments would go unnoticed across the border eh!!

Actually, Chris, fully expected and not at all stung. Love a response to good debate. Many thanks

To be fair, this is one of the funniest blogs and comment trails I've read for weeks!! Well done Mr Dyson for bringing up such a sensitive subject. Let's hope someone, somewhere in power takes up the campaign to abolish the 1993 act!!

its not that its a sensitive subject its that we don't like when the English try and boss us about the sooner wales is independent the better it may not happen now it may not happen in a few years but it will happen and when it does all the better charge the english for are water back date them for the amount of coal the taken from us oh and also what about that giant pipe line going across wales we can also either destroy that or charge them for that.
Oh and also charge the english twice as much for when they want to buy a holiday home in wales 2.

So you're not extreme or anything, WelshWarrior?

Typical english response to call a person who feels insulted by your rant, an extremist!! Take a look at the comments and stay the hell out of Welsh affairs, you're not needed!!

Still don't get you, Chris, apart from perceiving that you are in a bit of a rage! Again, my 'rant' was to challenge a law that I believe has gone too far.
You will note that I have not said the Welsh language should not exist - far from it. The Welsh have a good tourist industry on the back of people's fascination in parts of their culture, which includes a traditional language for some, costumes for others, cute dances, etc.
But for the language element to be insisted on as a 'must have' in all public places is a nanny-state too far, and one which I believe causes irritation. Some have argued that I wouldn't say the same about 'other' minority languages.
Well, I would say the same, and I have. Indeed recent studies have also done so, including those from race experts and government, who believe money should be spent on immigrants learning English rather than having English translated.
But I digress, because that is a different debate. The Welsh issue is re. a longstanding, indigenous population who happen to have an age-old language that was dying out, and one they would like to survive. I too think it would be great for it to survive... but not disingenuously via nanny-state laws forcing it upon people.
Re. 'extreme', WelshWarrior's latest reply was to discuss remuneration to a future Welsh state for coal, water and property purchases. If that's not 'extreme', then what is? (Not just the remuneration, but the 'belief' that Wales could exist economically as an independent state.) That said, if WW was just having a sarcy joke, then fine. I can see the funny side.
But re. Welsh affairs and who should stay in or out of them, do you not feel you are being rather blinkered?
Such matters are of interest to all, in the free-society in which we live.
I do not expect you to agree, not should you necessarily expect anyone to agree with you.
But the principle of my blog is that debates are held, and I shall continue to express my opinions... whilst welcoming yours. Who knows, one of us may persuade the other! But whatever, both can - and will in my case - feel free to comment on what they like!
Best regards!

Would i say i am extreme...well i have an extreme hate for ignorant english people...well ignorant people in general
Was i being sarcastic about back dateing payments of coal,water,and that giant pipe line....yes i was
But back onto topic about abolishing the welsh language from signs in wales at the end of the day why should we have 2 abolish them because somebody does not know welsh?
If you do not know welsh then thats not are fault and u say that the money going on signs to be made into welsh & english... then where should the money go?u say go 2 people coming into the country thats a laugh i would rather the money go into paying teachers or the likes 2 teach welsh better in schools i.e not making the language difficult 2 learn or even better why not have it so that in schools they teach welsh history and where the welsh as people come from

No Dyson, it's you that doesn't get it!!! What goes on in Wales is up to the people who live here, not the people who live in England, Scotland or any other damn place!! Welsh people fought hard to get the language recognized in our own Country after years of you lot trying your best to kill it off, which incidentally you still haven't managed!!
If you actually took the time to get clued up on what is actually going on here at the moment, i.e. the upsurge in the useage of Welsh and the even bigger move to Welsh medium education in Wales, you would realise that your plea to Welsh newspaper editors was ill founded and completely wrong!!
And again, just look at the comments you make, [Cute dances], just another attempt at ridicule of the Welsh!!
As for immigrants learning English, that's fine and good if they want to live in England, if they want to live in Wales then they should learn Welsh too!!
Luckily for us, not all English are like you and many that come to live here do learn the language, so good for them and I wouldn't mind betting that they would just be as disgusted with you as the majority are on here!

So let me get this right Mr. Dyson, you are saying that Welsh people who can speak their language shouldn't have a basic human right to have services in their own language, is that what you're saying?
If so you are totally out of order and should withdraw your comments immediately.

News this morning. S4C, the only Welsh language television station, attracted an audience share of 3% of Welsh viewers, down from 3.6% the previous year. This gives some perspective on the popularity of the language amongst Welsh people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7449253.stm

3%! Ha! Are you Welsh folk having a laff?? Is that a few hundred or a few thousand people? Tell you what, bet the lingo translations are costing a few million. Disgusting waste of money.
There's nwt wrong with a bit of vernacular (we Brummies know that!).
You can even share a bit of fun with one of those jokey, cartoon-style books.
But signs on loos, stations, roads, builsings, libraries, swimming pools, health centres, hospitals, job centres, benefit offices, (and so on and so on).
I'd prefer better quality meals on wheels for old folk in Wales who fought for their country but now sit in poverty.
Do you think they are bothered if their menus are in Welsh??

Steve:

Why should we have positive discrimination in favour of the Welsh language? Well, we don't. What we currently have is a Language Act that imposes not favouritism, but equality for Welsh - in limited areas only. In many ways it is a weak, toothless Act as it does not even give Welsh "official language" status.

Why is it necessary to have a law that explicitly promotes bilingualism? There is a good historical reason. For over 500 years there was an official policy, enshrined in writing in the "Acts of Union" (Laws in Wales Acts, 1535 to 1542), of discrimination against the Welsh language. In fact, it was fully intended to wipe out the language and replace it with English. This law was only abolished in 1993 with the passing of the Welsh Language Act. In the face of 500 years of official oppression of our language, it is only just and fair that our language should now be given some legal status.

As others have pointed out, Wales does indeed have two languages, which is why both are used on signs etc. If there was no English at all on the signs you would have a defensible (though hardly watertight) point, but as English is given at least equal, and often preferential status on signs, official documents etc, your argument holds no water.

Our language is not there for the benefit of tourists, nor is it artificially preserved as a sort of quaint throwback to a romanticised bygone age. It is our language, the one we speak. It is the language of work, home, love, argument and socialising for a great many people. I think it is difficult, if not impossible, for someone such as yourself who has not faced cultural and linguistic oppression to understand our attachment to our language, but the fact is that, speaking for myself, I am very glad to be a speaker of both Welsh and English. Both are beautiful languages and we would be much poorer were either of them to be swept under the carpet here in Wales.

TV audience figures have nothing to do with how widely used the Welsh language is, I challenge you Dyson or you Brummiebill to come to Bangor and tell the locals they can't have services in Welsh, you wouldn't make it out that's for sure.

WHAT GOES ON IN WALES IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENGLISH PEOPLE, GET IT!!

Many more fascinating replies. Many thanks!
I sort of get the need for some services to be translated in those areas where Welsh is overwhelmingly the first language. If Bangor is such a place, that sounds appropriate.
But the current Act is a one size fits all approach, enforcing translation for all public services in all areas of Wales.
That produces a needless cost and confusion issue.
My opinion remains that the law is a step too far. It should be repealed and, where it is needed, local partnerships/arrangements made to cover areas when dual languages are needed.
It's more of a local bye-law issue than an entire-Wales issue that creates such cost, misapprehension, etc.
That's my view, anyway. And It has as much do do with me as I like, as the costs are met by all tax-payers...

You still don't get it do you!! Welsh is the langauge of Wales despite it being eroded by constant english attacks on it over the years, such as this one!
We, as Welsh people have every right to insist, and to have our services in our native language, now you tell me why is that so wrong!!
I dare say that as an englishman, if someone threatened your langauge in this way, you wouldn't take it lying down either. Just try and do what you propose Dyson and look out for the aftermath!!

Just a short comment from an American who sees things from a git of a different angle. Here in the US and in Canada their are two languages: French in Canada and in the US just recently added, Spanish.
In Canada, the French language goes back before the coming of the English amd was spoken by all European peoples living there. Today, because a large minority of Canadians still speak French, bilingual signs.
Here in the US, Spanish is not an old language of our country; it has become widespread because of the number of immigrants who have some here to live. The country has been "forced" to become bilingual to accomadate these new comers, many of whom are illegal. I can no longer go anywhere that Spanish is not seen along with the official language of this country. I find this irritatating.
However, when you have a group of people living in their own country, speaking a language that literally goes back thousands of years; and you tell them they have to get rid of it, I would find a place to hide quickly.
Just a thought.

You want to go on about needless costs, well I can give you plenty of examples of that from in england, Iraq, Afghanistan, Olympics, Millenium Dome, birmingham mail, etc. etc. need I go on!!

It's just a blog, guys. Freedom of expression and all that!! It's what I think...

you talk of freedom of expression yet your blocking my comments

Have we (blocked comments)? I haven't. There is a birminghammail.net moderator, but the only comments 'moderated' are obscenities, threats of violence, etc, and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case with your comments. If you need to let me know personally of any comments you feel have been blocked without reason, feel free to email me direct.

Hahaha this is ridiculous Mr Dyson. This is a typical English/one-language view on this. It's so typical of English people who visit any 'other' country.
When people move to England, you expect them to, and they need to, learn English. But when an English person visits another country, where another language is spoken, they expect the natives, not to speak their native language, but to speak English! So many times in France I've seen a 'Brit' trying to buy something(having made no effort to even learn any of the basics), and when the French person doesn't understand them speaking English the first time, they just speak louder. I met an English person who's been living in France for 15 years recently, and I asked "So you must speak French then?" and they said "Oh goodness no!" After 15 years of being immersed in it, you'd think they'd make the effort to pick some up.
Welsh is the language of Wales whether you like it or not. In my opinion, the roadsigns should only have the original Welsh names on them, and not the bastardised English versions. Why spend more money on having bilingual signs when you can just have the original Welsh names. I don't think I've ever seen a bilingual roadsign in France. Can you imagine?! The original French placename and then underneath it a mispronounced English version of it. For example: Dinard (French) - (English) Deenaaahd...
If you go to another country you should always make an effort to accept its cultures and language in order to be accepted and to blend in, not impose your own language and then think it ridiculous when people are against that!
And why is it that English people think Welsh people are talking about them behind their backs when they speak Welsh together - we're just talking, communicating in our own language! Just accept that many of you (and of course I don't mean all, thankfully most English are open minded and well educated) (I just mean people with the same attitude as you Mr Dyson) need to change your attitude, perhaps then most of the countries in Europe will start liking England. When I go abroad I try to make sure people know I'm Welsh and not English, at least then I'll get a warm welcome from the natives.

If bilingual signs are so annoying, lets get rid of the English ones.

I think the answer to your problem if very simple - don't bother coming to Wales!!

Sorry I don't know why my post came up as anonymous

What a star! Love your comments. Ever since the decline of the British Empire it must be so frustrating for people like you that you can't legitimately and aggressively stick your nose into other nations' business. Ah well, you're just a short train-ride from Cardiff, and it's probably a good that you can sit at your laptop pontificating on the state of the Welsh language.

Given the problems that you have in your large cities across the border, why don't you spend your time pontificating about the problems that have beset you instead, and leave us little Celts to get on with running our own business.

On the other hand, you could try to follow the Respect Agenda so loved by your Government and show a little respect for your neighbour's culture. In the meantime, log on to
Amazon and buy yourself a phrase book. It's what I do when I'm about to visit a foreign land - rather than writing pathetic little xenophobic comments on my blog.

Viva Birmingham! Viva Cymru!

I am a Brummie, with Welsh ancestry.

I am appalled at the small minded, racist, imperial nature of Steve Dyson's blog.

It makes me almost ashamed to called myself English, and a Brummie.

It was the English who tried to kill off the Welsh language in the first place. It didn't just nearly die out on its own. Someone already mentioned the Welsh Not, but for those who don't know, it meant that Welsh children could be (and were) BEATEN for speaking their own language in their own country. And just 100 short years ago.

I am delighted that the Welsh fought back, and that there are now TV programmes, radio stations, and, yes, road signs, trumpeting out this great language. And I am also delighted that there are now more Welsh speakers than at at any time in the last 40 years, and the resurgence continues.

Cymru a Chymraeg am byth!

I hope I spelt that last bit right..

“I have nothing against the Welsh language, but….”, “ Welsh being forced down our throats”. We’ve heard it all before. The same tired old arguments, except now it’s repackaged as the Voice of Reason speaking out against Political Correctness gone mad. Add to this the patronising references to folk-dancing, stovepipe hats and sheep and you’ve just about got it covered. I live in a predominantly Welsh-speaking town in a predominantly Welsh-speaking county. For the Welsh people living here, Welsh is part of everyday life. For those who have moved here from outside Wales, it generally isn’t. Bilingual signage is provided not for the sake of Welsh-speakers, but to help those, who don’t understand Welsh. As for this being a drain on taxpayers, it is worth noting that I pay taxes, as do all Welsh-speakers, even during all those centuries, when officialdom refused to acknowledge our existence and our fundamental rights as a people. Maybe Steve Dyson doesn’t feel that Welsh-speakers should be entitled to expect services in their own language in their own country, a right that he takes entirely for granted. Maybe he would prefer Welsh to be invisible, or only appear in dodgy attempts at anglicising indigenous place names. After all, this is all his country isn’t it? All Britain…whatever that means. I suppose if Britishness means essentially Englishness with a few mild ‘Celtic’ eccentricities, which the English ‘mainstream’ doesn’t feel is too foreign, then I can understand where he’s coming from. Perhaps, if he’d made the effort to imagine how he’d feel if he’d been born and raised in a different culture, with an entirely different concept of what Britishness can mean, maybe he’d have had something worth putting in a newspaper. Nah, that would have proved too much of a challenge. Far easier to trot out the old clichés and give the anti-Welsh the chance to reaffirm their prejudices and offend Welsh-speakers in one fell swoop. Well done.

Excellent interaction! Many thanks to all.
My answer? Well, dyns (is that Welsh for chaps?), I guess my point is cost and convenience.
If the Welsh language is alive and well then carry on, please. But, if that's the case, why the 1993 Act and the expense and inefficiencies that causes?
The blog has always been against the 1993 Act, not the language itself. If the latter survives, it's because it's fit for 2008. Surely you don't need red tape to patch it up?
Now, if you really want a debate, what's all this Welsh Assembly lark about...?!

"why the 1993 Act"

You really are a horrible little man aren't you!!

The reason for the act was quite simply because the language had been eroded by constant english establishment attacks on it and a stated intent to completely destroy it and wipe it off the face of the earth!!
That is until we fought back with Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Cymraeg and other such pressure groups to re-establish the right to speak our own language in our own Country!!
I suggest you read up and get a bit more acquainted with the topic in hand before making asinine comments such as you have, much better to come at a topic with knowledge than ignorance as you have done!
Even now Welsh only has "Equal" status with english in Wales.
It will survive and when it has been built back up to it's former strength there will no longer be a need for the act just as long as you ignorant english types don't try to kill it again!
Try and get your bigoted brain round the fact that we have a "RIGHT" to our language and currently we need the act because of what people like you did, but hopefully in time we won't and then you will have what you desire to ditch the act, but you and your ilk will never take our language again and when the act is no longer needed because it has become strong again, you will still hear and see the langauge at all places in Wales. Get used to the idea or just stay out, simple really!!

You just don't get it do you?
Your opening gambit was at best insulting and condescending with your little comments like:

"I've nothing against Welsh folk who want to sing, chat and dance in the Welsh tongue in private, nor against weird academic qualifications in the subject, (if anyone can work out what use that could be!)."

And if you knew anything at all about other cultures, which you clearly don't, you would know that there are bilingual signs in both Scotland and Ireland and that Irish Gaelic is an official EU language and further, there are many places in Scotland where Scottish Gallic is making a comeback. I suggest you get out more and see what is actually taking place in your neighbours Countries before making stupid comments that says more about you than you realise!

An amusing and reasonably good natured anti Welsh Language troll Mr Dyson. Hurrah! Of course most of what you say is rubbish but that goes with the territory. I was born and raised in South East Wales and the school I attended did not teach Welsh. ( Latin but no Welsh ) Consequently I grew up without a knowledge of my own language. Despite having attended one or two adult classes my grasp is still rudimentary. Before migrating to the US I lived for ten years on Penarth Rd just behind Cardiff Central Station. I used public transport a lot since I dont drive. Funnily enough, despite the fact that my command of Welsh is probably not much better than yours, I dont recall a single moments confusion with the announcements. Perhaps you just werent paying sufficient attention, no doubt engrossed with plans for your next troll. Anyhoo..theres a bunch of us in the US who want to learn welsh and if anyone over there wants to get in touch or help us out here we are:-
http://americymru.ning.com

I have 2 agree about the welsh assembly its basically a con just to try and keep the people of Wales quite thinking that we are really progressing with the welsh assembly.
Where as in reality the welsh assembly can barely do anything without having to go through the English assembly first. So really as it is the English don't want us(Welsh)to have are own laws etc etc they want to make sure they still rule wales or have control of wales

Recent news has told us of plans to close around a fifth of Post Offices across the UK (inc. Wales). Various reasons are given, one being the £120m subsidy the govt. says it's paying. Get rid of the 1993 Act and the red-tape, repetition and inefficiencies this costs, and keep the Post Office network. For the benefit of everyone (but please, no 'Post Office' signs in Welsh, that would be taking the Michael)

Gethin, get a grip. Read your quote of the editor's blog again:
"I've nothing against Welsh folk who want to sing, chat and dance in the Welsh tongue in private, nor against weird academic qualifications in the subject, (if anyone can work out what use that could be!)."
This was class blogging. It made me giggle!
"Insulting and condescending", you say. Jo Brand would have been proud, I say!
Move on, Gethin. Some of the Welsh fight is making you guys in the vallies look a little silly and humourless.

@Sally: I wonder if you say it was class blogging if it was someone saying the same thing about your language, I don't think so!!

@Bummiebill: What about getting rid of the Olympics in 2012 which will only benefit London, then we could keep the post offices open with that cash instead, which incidentally amounts to a load more tahn what the Welsh language costs!!

At the end of the day we can all keep arguing and arguing and arguing but what some guy on a website says about another country does not really mean much just some 1 voicing their opinion there is that word "Opinion".
Meaning it has no power its meaningless because they are not the government they are not the person who passes or has laws taken away for instance i would like to see a law where the English government cant control the laws set by the welsh"Non" existent government that sits in Cardiff.
As for people like Brummie and Sally take no notice of them you always have snobs like that who think because its another country they can laugh about the situation. Just ignore them they words are as meaningless as the "new deal" scheme set by the government.

Gethin: I am in total agreement with you about Olympics 2012. Overblown flag-waving nonsense that is a waste of money - money that will cost a lot more than they currently reckon.