Let's ABOLISH the Welsh Language Act 1993 (diddymu, if you like)

With all due respect Mr. Dyson your comments about the Welsh Language and Welsh Speakers are at best ignorant at worst offensively racist. Imagine a different scenario: Black African Americans have just won equal rights in the USA and there comes along a white supremacist leaning newspaper saying that all this new equal rights is "so darn unconfinient because the pavement and the busses are now so overcrouded, it was better when only us whites where alowed to use the services."

Welcome to the 21st Century Mr. Dyson, the century where, hopefully, people will be treated equal and not discriminated against because the language they speak or the color of their skin.

The next thing you will be suggesting is that Churches should be closed down because it causes the roads to get busier on a Sunday morning and this inconviences you! I agree with the gentleman who posted previously though I don't agree that any respect is due to you Sir Dyson!

If being in Cardiff and seeing and hearing the Welsh Language annoys you, you know exactly what you can do!

Cymru am byth!

Hi Michael, Shelley, Huw and Rhys:
The blog was nothing to do with racial harmony, an issue which we Wasps, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews and Afro-Caribbeans stumble along quite ably with in Birmingham, thank you.
This is to do with the inconvenience and hilarity caused by home-grown political-correctness over-projecting a nice-to-have linguistic anachronism.
Those Welsh who want to keep an historic tongue going, get on with it... I respect your rights. And even put up the odd sign and celebratory message in Welsh while you're at it.
But the Act I refer to insists that EVERY blinkin' public notice of any kind has to be in Welsh as well as English. And that, in my Welsh-water drinking opinion, is bureaucratic nanny-state madness.

Very funny!!
Baaaaaa!!!
The Welsh-boys, I ask you, sensitive or what?
Baaaa...!!!

You're sad little empire died a long time ago, soon Scotland will cut you adrift and then hopefully the Welsh and even the Cornish are saying they've had enough of the english bigots like yourself!!

Ho de ho ho, Anne Robinson, AA Gill, Janet Street-Porter etc.

David: you'll find French signs in the airport in Vancouver even though French is a 'minority' language in that area.

It takes a millisecond for non-Welsh speakers to recognise it's a language they don't understand and so flash to the Welsh.

Welsh is a living language - of kids, families, entertainment etc. One Wales. It's *nothing* for non-Welsh speakers to put up with a little inconvenience. But it's wonderful for us multi-linguals to be able to use it and see one of our languages being used.

Long-live our rich, diverse bilingual/multilingual culture! And long may we be like most other nations of the world in Wales - having more than one language. It's marvellous - embrace it, man!

Vive le gallois! Viva el gales! Ac yn y blaen. Na zdrowie!

Speaking as a one of the tourist sort from across the pond, as our poor joke goes, I want to express a bit of my 'annoyance and frustration' with this terrible system.

Except I can't. I am neither annoyed nor frustrated with it, and I actually really like the presence of Cymraeg. It adds a culture to Wales that I cannot say England has, and it is quite frankly fun. I like to see what words are there, I like to try to prounounce them (and sorry to any Welsh folk who hear me butchering your language). Quite frankly, it adds to the whole experience.

Mr. Dyson, I'm not with you on this one. I'm eager for that 'daft' language you mention to grace my ears (and eyes, be it a road sign or a railway board) again. Why take away the culture from Wales? It is that same culture which sells tourism there.

ok, if you don't want to see our postion david, imagine that french became the languege of england would you not get a little annoyed if a frenchman then said "all this english here in englad is so stupid i'm sure everyone can speak french by now"
welsh may be a minority languege but it is the original languege, and has only been weakend by english refusal to show any respect to other langueges and cultures not only in wales. And some of us here find it hard to speak english and understand it under pressured situations. so thank godnes for the 1993 act.

Hi Emma. French signs in Vancouver are just as politically correct as Welsh signs in Cardiff. Surely a sensible attitude is "Yes it is a bit of a pain, but a political decision has been made to try to save the language", rather than an absurd language fundamentalist rant at complaints from the English.

Anyone who lives in Wales, as I do (do you?), knows that the language crew contributing to this thread are not mainstream. One or other of them has come across the article, told his mates on some Welsh language blog, and they have piled in.

Hi David,

Thanks for your comments. You are clearly keeping an eye on this thread, too!

Yeah, I do live in Wales, and I love having the opportunity to use the language. Being fully bilingual, I love the English language, too.

Yes, it's easy to get frustrated by 'fundamentalists' as you mention. I don't agree with all and sundry and like to strike a balance. I don't like crazy anti-Englishness same as I don't like crazy anti-Welshness.

However, a very pragmatic way of seeing it is: you sometimes need to have what you call 'fundamentalists' to bring us to the more 'common' ground we have now.

I have introduced many a friend to the delights of culture and real life through the Welsh language, mixing with people who don't use it as a political weapon but who use it every day as part of normality. We are not the people, though, who are normally vocal. So quite often, people are subjected to what they call 'extreme' sentiments. Sometimes my friends have been fearful of Welsh-languageness in the past.

Yeah, there might be a little more expense, and a tiny bit more hassle in continuing with the bilingual tradition of our nation.

But I don't agree that 'most' people aren't into this bilingual thing.

But why do people seem so fearful of it?

It's politics, generations ago, that essentially tried to wipe out Welsh. (Note: Catalan under Franco.) So I guess we need a helping hand from politics to help it thrive again. It's tough because Welsh is still a 'minority' language with 20% of the population speaking it, whereas Catalan has around 6 million speakers.

Anyway, I find it sad that as someone who lives in Wales, you say it's 'only' a minority language. Maybe it is, but it's 'our' language, and I, for one, love it.

That'll be 'dynion', Mr Dyson.

Hey guys and gals, your language is great, I'm sure. But the Act makes a mockery of it by projecting it in everyone's face. That is NOT the way to preserve it.

"David said:
Rhys Llwyd and some others posting here represent one strand of Welsh opinion, and a minority one."

This is the usual rubbish posted by the Anti Welsh Brigade, claiming that the supporters of the language are in a minority. It is simply not true and you are using misinformation and smoke and mirrors to try to get your message across. As another poster has said, the real truth is the "majority" of Welsh people support the language, the only group inside Wales who don't are the immigrants from england!
And as for you Mr. Dyson, if you don't like the language don't come here, stay in your own backyard and speak with that odd accent you have down there!!

Strange how some Welsh people are happy to distance themselves from England yet quite happy for their football teams to participate in the English football leagues and the English cip competitions.

While the Brits - and the Brummies especially - can be ignorami, realistically we should ask a few questions of ourselves...
A. How much does the Welsh Assembly cost?
B. How much does Welsh translation cost?
C. How much do FREE Welsh prescriptions cost?
D. This is the curcial one... how much is raised annually in taxes from Wales?
Now work out the conundrum: A+B+C-D=E
If E = a plus figure, then what are we arguing about?
DO we want to be a begging country?
Could we exist without London?
I think not, my Valley friends.
And so, we should be less intransigent about items like the Act referred to here.
With it, we feel like a protected species.
Without it, we're an imprtant part, but an integrated part, of a diverse island.

Guys, the thing here is that while the signs are in Welsh they are ALSO in English, and it IS Wales. We DO have a language, and someone from another country has no right to make such a rude statement as "ABOLISH WELSH". If it were in another part of the world that would be ethnically inflammatory and before anyone accuses me of dramatising, step outside the square and see a member of the press from a dominant country stating that a country long conquered and for a long time suppressed should have no public demonstration of its native language. Forget the names Wales and England, and just think of them as 2 faceless nations in that situation and tell me that isn't ethnic cleansing of a sort? If us Welsh have an issue as to whether our road signs and other signage needs to be in one or both languages it's an issue for US, you have no right to say that Mr. Dyson. Sorry but saying that Welsh shldnt be shown in Wales is rather stupid. Not trying to cause a stir or insult, I just think saying that is really stupid. Who'd go to England and say stop putting signs up in English??? It's WALES, we have the Welsh language. I mean come on! Common sense surely???

Hi David as a Welshman living in Birmingham can I say what a wonderful advert for your paper this editorial is.

Let’s forget the inconvenience of bilingual signage and just concentrate on you calling it a daft language which is ignorant and offensive. I don't think you would be so quick make the same mistake about your Urdu, Gujarati, Hindi, Polish, and diverse multilingual readership.

Welsh is a native language that pre dates the mongrel English Language and yet you wouldn't afford the same courtesy and respect to its speakers as you would to those of non native languages.

So I can speak English so what, so can a good portion of Europeans, I'm sure you'd like the signs on holiday to be just in English too but think you'll find most countries unobliging. What you forget is that it is (as in the case of many welsh speakers) my second language. I learned Welsh as my mother tongue and the English afterwards. I was lucky to be allowed to speak my own language many of my ancestors were not so fortunate thanks to the welsh not (html is sadly not one of my languages, google it!), and at that time English was not as widely spoken in certain areas of Wales as you might think!

So I don't think the welsh language act should be any of your concern, though you can have your views on the consequences by all means. I'd like to hope most people would find them trivial and self indulgent though.

Hi Owain. You are confusing me with the editor, Steve Dyson. I have not said Welsh is daft. If pressed I might say English spelling and Welsh mutations were daft.
The point about Welsh in Wales, unlike, say Germans in Germany, is that only a minority of the Welsh themselves actually speak Welsh. The Germans all speak German. This destroys your analogy. Of course there are many Welsh people for whom Welsh is their mother tongue, and the revival of the Welsh language is a legitimate political exercise. My irritation is with the bogus arguments (and please spare us the "welsh not" yet again) put forward by proponents of the language, particularly claims or insinuations that Welsh is "the language of Wales". This is true insofar as it does not (with vary minor exceptions) exist elsewhere, except in people with Welsh origins. However, it is not the "language of Wales" in the sense of the language used by most people in Wales day-to-day. It is no use pretending the monoglot English-speaking majority in Wales do not exist, however distasteful you may find their existence.

Welsh Language Act 1
Pompous English Editor 0 :)

Afraid that there's no chance of it being abolished Mr Dyson, next year will see transfer of more powers to further strengthen the Act. The joys of devolution mean that it doesn't matter what you think any more. You can whinge all you want. We make the decisions now. Now cough up for all that stolen water! ;-)

Sorry Steve, but there are thousands of communities where daily life is conducted through the medium of Welsh.

I'm sure you probably think that people only start speaking Welsh in pubs when you walk in, and that it's a mechanism to exclude outsiders. But actually, Welsh is the mother tongue anywhere west of a line roughly from Prestatyn to Swansea.

Whether you think it's nanny statism or not, unfortunately the Welsh Language Act is necessary to guarantee these people and communities their right to communication in their own native language. Posters in these blogs often decry the negative effects of globalisation and multinational industry, so why is there so little recognition that Welsh people should be entitled to water bills in Welsh if they want them?

If I visit Italy, I don't expect Italians to stop speaking Italian. It would be nice if you applied the same thought process to Wales. As a Welsh-born Midlander who's been here since he was 18, I don't expect you to stop speaking English for my benefit.

Might I suggest that if you don't want to be baffled by Welsh, you could always learn it? Your challenge is to learn, within a week, the Welsh for "chip on the English shoulder".

Hi Welsh Warrior, Steve and others.
To tempting not to reply!
The difference between going to China and other countries you mention is that they have an established language, and the signs are already up. (there's no laws that insist on them).
Wales, like it not, is mainly English-speaking.
Those who want to continue (or start) Welsh should do so. But why go to the pains of a nanny-state statute that MAKES so many public bodies translate and display EVERYTHING in both English and Welsh?
A mad waste of money, and one that does nothing for genuinely keeping the language.

The reason why the majority of wales speaks English to day is well because the English wanted the welsh language outlawed and by the looks of things that quest still continues you might as well just say BAN THE WELSH LANGUAGE full stop.
Take away the rights of the welsh people because they are a conquered nation blah blah blah if you have problems with Welsh Signs do not come to wales trust me you wont be missed.
Hell next we might as well have S4C banned because they speak welsh and after all the majority of channels are in English right?
Wales is a nation as a nation we should decide what language are signs or whatever has if its Welsh & English then so be it if you cant b "Assed" to learn very small amounts of welsh because your traveling through wales then tuff luck.
Why should we resort to pleasing those of another country? Why don't you get off your ass and learn small amounts of welsh?
After all the welsh had to learn English even though are country is not an English country but a welsh one.

Chan eil mi a' tuigsinn seo idir. Carson a tha sibh a' reusonaich air seo?

OK, I'll attempt to continue in the English. ScotRail (bless its cotton sockies), some years ago, and before the Gaelic Language Act, decided to have bilingual signs on some of its stations. Not this to recognise officially the Gaelic or owt like that, but to make money. It attracts tourists.

Indeed, if you go to Shetland, you will see some bilingual signs with Old Norse, for the same reason. But why then such things as Language Acts for Welsh and Gaelic?

It is not about signs. Indeed, I suspect that the single-language street signs I once saw in Machynlleth might now be under threat, with them needing to do them in English too. It is about status.

How would you like it if we put the clock back about 900 years, when the last resistance to the Normans stopped in England, and everyone had to speak French to "get on" - that is, if you didn't speak the French, you were stuck as a peasant with no chance of betterment. That is how it was in Wales and the Highlands with English until last century. The Language Acts are a way of trying to make sure it doesn't happen like that again.

So, begone with your drivel about big signs and incomprehensible station announcements. The matter is a lot deeper than that.

"But maybe, just maybe, the Welsh should get over it?"

And finally we see the true anti Welsh english bigot coming out!!!
Maybe, just maybe the English should start treating us as equals and not the inferior race you like to portray us as!!

CASE CLOSED...........just goes to show the ignorance of most English people still exists even to day. So mad little English man run along and stay out of Celtic affairs SAXONS not welcome..oh and some advice for your next article it could be HOW MUCH DO THE WELSH REALLY HATE THE ENGLISH? OR it could be HOW IGNORANT ARE THE ENGLISH MEDIA?

Why not ban every language that you cant speak then you'll never be confused when you go oustide england?

You must be slightly retarded if you find two languages confusing, especially when one of them is your own language!

Here's a tip if its so confusing stay in Birmingham.

Thanks for your water

Your ridiculous comment on your campaign 'to abolish the welsh language' is both frustrating and insulting.
Why is it that you have a problem with train station signs being in welsh/english but yet if you went to a country like Poland, you would not complain about their use of polish/english signs? Would you also campaign for the polish language to be abolished? I do not think so.
To be honest, us welsh speakers find articles such as yours ignorant. We have the upmost respect for our language and do not appreciate people such as yourself wanting us to keep quiet about our love for the welsh language. At the end of the day, England has no language that they can call 'unique' so please show at least an ounce of respect towards a language that has been ours for centuries.

Oh, and by the way, your 'comment' about 'weird academic qualifications' being of no use is nonsense. Do you have any idea of the demand there are for welsh speakers in careers today? and how much employers are willing to pay a big sum of money to have them?
Obviously not.

Er...
Subtitling
Er...
School Teacher
Er...
Weren't the welsh also used in world war 2 to send encrypted messages since the nazis couldent understand welsh they had welsh people send the messages hmm......ignorance really does show in you english

Quote: "I'm just unsure that this act is doing them any favours."

And who exactly are you to decide that? It has nothing to do with anybody outside Wales, who are you to say that Welsh people can't have services in their own language?
This is an attitude right out of the 50's and 60's where the Welsh language was frowned upon, most of us had thought the English had moved on from it, sadly it appears not!!
I guess you and your ilk are the same sort of Englishman that goes to Spain and demands English food and that the locals speak English for fear that they're talking about you, you are pathetic!!
Again, what goes on in Wales has nothing to do with you Dyson, so butt out!!

Again, What happens in Wales has nothing to do with you, period!!
I dare say you wouldn't dare say such a thing about the multiple langauges being spoken in the Midlands would you! You saw a soft target, you took it and have been stung by the result, not what you expected was it? You probably thought albeit naively that your comments would go unnoticed across the border eh!!

To be fair, this is one of the funniest blogs and comment trails I've read for weeks!! Well done Mr Dyson for bringing up such a sensitive subject. Let's hope someone, somewhere in power takes up the campaign to abolish the 1993 act!!

So you're not extreme or anything, WelshWarrior?

Still don't get you, Chris, apart from perceiving that you are in a bit of a rage! Again, my 'rant' was to challenge a law that I believe has gone too far.
You will note that I have not said the Welsh language should not exist - far from it. The Welsh have a good tourist industry on the back of people's fascination in parts of their culture, which includes a traditional language for some, costumes for others, cute dances, etc.
But for the language element to be insisted on as a 'must have' in all public places is a nanny-state too far, and one which I believe causes irritation. Some have argued that I wouldn't say the same about 'other' minority languages.
Well, I would say the same, and I have. Indeed recent studies have also done so, including those from race experts and government, who believe money should be spent on immigrants learning English rather than having English translated.
But I digress, because that is a different debate. The Welsh issue is re. a longstanding, indigenous population who happen to have an age-old language that was dying out, and one they would like to survive. I too think it would be great for it to survive... but not disingenuously via nanny-state laws forcing it upon people.
Re. 'extreme', WelshWarrior's latest reply was to discuss remuneration to a future Welsh state for coal, water and property purchases. If that's not 'extreme', then what is? (Not just the remuneration, but the 'belief' that Wales could exist economically as an independent state.) That said, if WW was just having a sarcy joke, then fine. I can see the funny side.
But re. Welsh affairs and who should stay in or out of them, do you not feel you are being rather blinkered?
Such matters are of interest to all, in the free-society in which we live.
I do not expect you to agree, not should you necessarily expect anyone to agree with you.
But the principle of my blog is that debates are held, and I shall continue to express my opinions... whilst welcoming yours. Who knows, one of us may persuade the other! But whatever, both can - and will in my case - feel free to comment on what they like!
Best regards!

No Dyson, it's you that doesn't get it!!! What goes on in Wales is up to the people who live here, not the people who live in England, Scotland or any other damn place!! Welsh people fought hard to get the language recognized in our own Country after years of you lot trying your best to kill it off, which incidentally you still haven't managed!!
If you actually took the time to get clued up on what is actually going on here at the moment, i.e. the upsurge in the useage of Welsh and the even bigger move to Welsh medium education in Wales, you would realise that your plea to Welsh newspaper editors was ill founded and completely wrong!!
And again, just look at the comments you make, [Cute dances], just another attempt at ridicule of the Welsh!!
As for immigrants learning English, that's fine and good if they want to live in England, if they want to live in Wales then they should learn Welsh too!!
Luckily for us, not all English are like you and many that come to live here do learn the language, so good for them and I wouldn't mind betting that they would just be as disgusted with you as the majority are on here!

News this morning. S4C, the only Welsh language television station, attracted an audience share of 3% of Welsh viewers, down from 3.6% the previous year. This gives some perspective on the popularity of the language amongst Welsh people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7449253.stm

Steve:

Why should we have positive discrimination in favour of the Welsh language? Well, we don't. What we currently have is a Language Act that imposes not favouritism, but equality for Welsh - in limited areas only. In many ways it is a weak, toothless Act as it does not even give Welsh "official language" status.

Why is it necessary to have a law that explicitly promotes bilingualism? There is a good historical reason. For over 500 years there was an official policy, enshrined in writing in the "Acts of Union" (Laws in Wales Acts, 1535 to 1542), of discrimination against the Welsh language. In fact, it was fully intended to wipe out the language and replace it with English. This law was only abolished in 1993 with the passing of the Welsh Language Act. In the face of 500 years of official oppression of our language, it is only just and fair that our language should now be given some legal status.

As others have pointed out, Wales does indeed have two languages, which is why both are used on signs etc. If there was no English at all on the signs you would have a defensible (though hardly watertight) point, but as English is given at least equal, and often preferential status on signs, official documents etc, your argument holds no water.

Our language is not there for the benefit of tourists, nor is it artificially preserved as a sort of quaint throwback to a romanticised bygone age. It is our language, the one we speak. It is the language of work, home, love, argument and socialising for a great many people. I think it is difficult, if not impossible, for someone such as yourself who has not faced cultural and linguistic oppression to understand our attachment to our language, but the fact is that, speaking for myself, I am very glad to be a speaker of both Welsh and English. Both are beautiful languages and we would be much poorer were either of them to be swept under the carpet here in Wales.

Many more fascinating replies. Many thanks!
I sort of get the need for some services to be translated in those areas where Welsh is overwhelmingly the first language. If Bangor is such a place, that sounds appropriate.
But the current Act is a one size fits all approach, enforcing translation for all public services in all areas of Wales.
That produces a needless cost and confusion issue.
My opinion remains that the law is a step too far. It should be repealed and, where it is needed, local partnerships/arrangements made to cover areas when dual languages are needed.
It's more of a local bye-law issue than an entire-Wales issue that creates such cost, misapprehension, etc.
That's my view, anyway. And It has as much do do with me as I like, as the costs are met by all tax-payers...

Just a short comment from an American who sees things from a git of a different angle. Here in the US and in Canada their are two languages: French in Canada and in the US just recently added, Spanish.
In Canada, the French language goes back before the coming of the English amd was spoken by all European peoples living there. Today, because a large minority of Canadians still speak French, bilingual signs.
Here in the US, Spanish is not an old language of our country; it has become widespread because of the number of immigrants who have some here to live. The country has been "forced" to become bilingual to accomadate these new comers, many of whom are illegal. I can no longer go anywhere that Spanish is not seen along with the official language of this country. I find this irritatating.
However, when you have a group of people living in their own country, speaking a language that literally goes back thousands of years; and you tell them they have to get rid of it, I would find a place to hide quickly.
Just a thought.

It's just a blog, guys. Freedom of expression and all that!! It's what I think...

Have we (blocked comments)? I haven't. There is a birminghammail.net moderator, but the only comments 'moderated' are obscenities, threats of violence, etc, and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case with your comments. If you need to let me know personally of any comments you feel have been blocked without reason, feel free to email me direct.

If bilingual signs are so annoying, lets get rid of the English ones.

Sorry I don't know why my post came up as anonymous

I am a Brummie, with Welsh ancestry.

I am appalled at the small minded, racist, imperial nature of Steve Dyson's blog.

It makes me almost ashamed to called myself English, and a Brummie.

It was the English who tried to kill off the Welsh language in the first place. It didn't just nearly die out on its own. Someone already mentioned the Welsh Not, but for those who don't know, it meant that Welsh children could be (and were) BEATEN for speaking their own language in their own country. And just 100 short years ago.

I am delighted that the Welsh fought back, and that there are now TV programmes, radio stations, and, yes, road signs, trumpeting out this great language. And I am also delighted that there are now more Welsh speakers than at at any time in the last 40 years, and the resurgence continues.

Cymru a Chymraeg am byth!

“I have nothing against the Welsh language, but….�?, “ Welsh being forced down our throats�?. We’ve heard it all before. The same tired old arguments, except now it’s repackaged as the Voice of Reason speaking out against Political Correctness gone mad. Add to this the patronising references to folk-dancing, stovepipe hats and sheep and you’ve just about got it covered. I live in a predominantly Welsh-speaking town in a predominantly Welsh-speaking county. For the Welsh people living here, Welsh is part of everyday life. For those who have moved here from outside Wales, it generally isn’t. Bilingual signage is provided not for the sake of Welsh-speakers, but to help those, who don’t understand Welsh. As for this being a drain on taxpayers, it is worth noting that I pay taxes, as do all Welsh-speakers, even during all those centuries, when officialdom refused to acknowledge our existence and our fundamental rights as a people. Maybe Steve Dyson doesn’t feel that Welsh-speakers should be entitled to expect services in their own language in their own country, a right that he takes entirely for granted. Maybe he would prefer Welsh to be invisible, or only appear in dodgy attempts at anglicising indigenous place names. After all, this is all his country isn’t it? All Britain…whatever that means. I suppose if Britishness means essentially Englishness with a few mild ‘Celtic’ eccentricities, which the English ‘mainstream’ doesn’t feel is too foreign, then I can understand where he’s coming from. Perhaps, if he’d made the effort to imagine how he’d feel if he’d been born and raised in a different culture, with an entirely different concept of what Britishness can mean, maybe he’d have had something worth putting in a newspaper. Nah, that would have proved too much of a challenge. Far easier to trot out the old clichés and give the anti-Welsh the chance to reaffirm their prejudices and offend Welsh-speakers in one fell swoop. Well done.

"why the 1993 Act"

You really are a horrible little man aren't you!!

The reason for the act was quite simply because the language had been eroded by constant english establishment attacks on it and a stated intent to completely destroy it and wipe it off the face of the earth!!
That is until we fought back with Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Cymraeg and other such pressure groups to re-establish the right to speak our own language in our own Country!!
I suggest you read up and get a bit more acquainted with the topic in hand before making asinine comments such as you have, much better to come at a topic with knowledge than ignorance as you have done!
Even now Welsh only has "Equal" status with english in Wales.
It will survive and when it has been built back up to it's former strength there will no longer be a need for the act just as long as you ignorant english types don't try to kill it again!
Try and get your bigoted brain round the fact that we have a "RIGHT" to our language and currently we need the act because of what people like you did, but hopefully in time we won't and then you will have what you desire to ditch the act, but you and your ilk will never take our language again and when the act is no longer needed because it has become strong again, you will still hear and see the langauge at all places in Wales. Get used to the idea or just stay out, simple really!!

An amusing and reasonably good natured anti Welsh Language troll Mr Dyson. Hurrah! Of course most of what you say is rubbish but that goes with the territory. I was born and raised in South East Wales and the school I attended did not teach Welsh. ( Latin but no Welsh ) Consequently I grew up without a knowledge of my own language. Despite having attended one or two adult classes my grasp is still rudimentary. Before migrating to the US I lived for ten years on Penarth Rd just behind Cardiff Central Station. I used public transport a lot since I dont drive. Funnily enough, despite the fact that my command of Welsh is probably not much better than yours, I dont recall a single moments confusion with the announcements. Perhaps you just werent paying sufficient attention, no doubt engrossed with plans for your next troll. Anyhoo..theres a bunch of us in the US who want to learn welsh and if anyone over there wants to get in touch or help us out here we are:-
http://americymru.ning.com

Recent news has told us of plans to close around a fifth of Post Offices across the UK (inc. Wales). Various reasons are given, one being the £120m subsidy the govt. says it's paying. Get rid of the 1993 Act and the red-tape, repetition and inefficiencies this costs, and keep the Post Office network. For the benefit of everyone (but please, no 'Post Office' signs in Welsh, that would be taking the Michael)

@Sally: I wonder if you say it was class blogging if it was someone saying the same thing about your language, I don't think so!!

@Bummiebill: What about getting rid of the Olympics in 2012 which will only benefit London, then we could keep the post offices open with that cash instead, which incidentally amounts to a load more tahn what the Welsh language costs!!

Gethin: I am in total agreement with you about Olympics 2012. Overblown flag-waving nonsense that is a waste of money - money that will cost a lot more than they currently reckon.

So, BrummieBill, are you now aginst the Olympics and for the Welsh language?

There are many of us who do not approve of this current tribal obsession with Wales and Welshness, and no longer feel welcome in our own country. Are we to become pariahs because we do not accept the prevailing orthodoxy? Incidentally, why is it that the people were not consulted about the use of Welsh as the first language of Wales- which now comes first in any correspondence from the Welsh Assembly and government agencies and first in announcements at the theatre, passport office and train stations - when 88% of the people of Wales are first language English speakers.
I respect the right of any person who wishes to speak Welsh but allow me the courtesy of English first in predominantly English-speaking areas, particularly on road signs!

Not even worth a response - It's pointless to argue with nationalist fanatics!

@ Monmouthshire girl:
Nationalist Fanatic.....No!!

Fiercely proud of my Country..........Yes!!
Fiercely proud of the Welsh language.....Yes!!

Obviously you can't say the same!!

Actuall "Sally" I have nothing against any Welsh person who can't speak the language for whatever reason, what I am against, and I'll try and make it clear so you can understand, is people who refuse to let the Welsh people who do speak the language the right to have it in their every day lives if they so choose, now you tell me "Sally", why is that so wrong???
Always the same old fanatic accusations whenever anyone stands up for what they believe!!

Tell me "Sally" and please answer, how would you feel if suddenly the english language was under attack in your own Country? Would you not fight for it? I think you would, so we're not that different then are we!!!

How can you accuse Gethin of bad manners?? The guy with bad manners is the guy who wrote this blog in the first place! Wakey wakey!!

Rewind, Emyr! Not many people on this trail wish to 'finish it off'!! I'm personally happy for you that you enjoy the Welsh language. If thousands more join you, great! But there are more important things in the world to spend money on than adhering to a nanny-state law (the 1993 Act) that insists on multiple translations and sign-making in all public places. And, therefore, some folk's opinion is that it should be repealed (is that right Steve D?). Let the Welsh language stand on it's own two feet! (I'm sure it would survive, given all the support it obviously has). And 'Gethin'... my name is Sally Denbeigh, of Herefordshire. Look me up!!

Good chat and a horrible bit of nostalgia for the bigoted 70's and those awful knee-jerk anti-Welsh Labour MP's like Kinnock, Foot and that twit Abse. Thankfully like dinosaurs their outdated views are extinct by now and and an English Labour leader has given Wales the local respectability of deciding where it puts its own streetlamps and what colour they should be! The Assembly rocks!

Putting aside the fact that a foreigner feels it fair and his remit to comment on a pretty straightforward and hardly mentally taxing bit of bilingualism (in a separate bilingual country) I will just try some further global comparisons as a form of defence for this heinous business!

In North Sweden they have bilingualism in practice everywhere (due to historical Finnish population in the North). Spain has 2 languages in use everywhere in Catalunya (think Barcelona). I could go on but I think this sort of antagonism is just typical of Little Englanders who have a small cultural perspective. Does Mr Dyson know how many languages there are in India? Does he know how many official languages there are in Switzerland, Belgium or South Africa? Does he think they all go around confused and missing trains? LOL! No - they manage nicely with mutual respect and total lack of 'I want mine to be dominant' whining!

Finally if that doesn't wash, dig deep to find a glimmer of empathy, compassion or maybe even a slightly over-compensating sense of fair play. Why? Well maybe Wales as a country deserves a bit of recompense for the negative actions of its big bully neighbour in trying to homogenise and stifle us over the years? In these 'PC' days (most of us) are rather more respectful and fairer towards each other (and even cut minorities a bit more slack) and so we now also have the Welsh Language Act. So, put your tongue and sword away Mr Dyson! Call it your historical penance if your nose (however absurdly) still remains still out of joint!

If that still doesn't work, then screw the mutual respect but watch out for yellow water mate ;-)

Dewi Diesel Evans

Excellent comments from Dewi and Dominic. You've nearly persuaded me that the Act is doing some good! Nearly....

Steve,

Sorry to see you nearly caving in to the Welsh language lobby. You do need to bear in mind that to most Welsh people the language is a pain in the bum, inflicted on them by a bunch of sanctimonious crusaders from the north and west. These people not only get up the noses of the English speaking majority, but steal their jobs on the spurious grounds of language. The Welsh language lobby is missionary-style group in the business of trying to coerce their compatriots into learning the language. They pretend to the English that they represent the people of Wales, and the English know no better than to believe them. They may even believe themselves that they represent the people of Wales, because to them the English speaking majority are not really Welsh, just an embarassing excrescence for whom they have no word in their language.

Quote David:
"These people not only get up the noses of the English speaking majority, but steal their jobs on the spurious grounds of language."

Actually I'm an english speaking Welsh woman and I'm proud to have Welsh speakers as friends and only wish I had the gumption to learn what is a beautiful language and the language of my ancestors. As for stealing jobs!, What utter hogwash, jobs in the public sector require in most areas an understanding of Welsh but not fluency. The only places where fluency is a must for jobs is in areas of Wales [and there are still many] is areas where Welsh is till the first and dominant language, mainly the North and West, but these areas are growing year on year, and why wouldn't that be the case. Your views are from a bygone age, belonging to the 1960's and 70's and the more open minded are glad for that fact.

Dave....your wrong i cant speak welsh....i dont understand welsh...i did not like learning the welsh language in school...BUT its part of are culture its part of the welsh heritage its part of are history.
So the welsh language should remain part of the welsh heritage,culture,etc only because people like my self(who cant speak welsh or do not understand it) and you and dyson and many other people,does not mean everything should change 2 please some individuals who are to lazy or just do not like the fact that there are 2 languages on 1 sign.
I get by with the welsh signs around places since they also have english on them if your 2 lazy to look down a little to read the english underneath then tuff luck.
I understand dyson is not saying take away the welsh language as a whole but signs but yeah it starts at road signs but then what stops them from doing it to other things with the welsh language on it?
I am no nationalist or anything along those lines as a matter of fact i am of a mixed heritage with family from wales to england to belize and many other country.
The point i am trying to make is that only because u do not understand something does not give you the right to take away something from people that do understand it or because its a "Waste" of money.
What else can the money be spent on the money would probably only end up going back into the pockets of politicians....

Thelma is such an odd name. Now I understand why. It's Welsh!

don't mind brummie he cant help it he does not have a real argument and he has a brain the size of a peanut

Of course that should say "WAR" heroes", not was! Typo, sorry.

brummie shows the intelligence u have. What are you about 12 years old, on your parents computer the way you act certainly makes it look that way.

Is that the best u got seriously. You come on here just to talk trash no constructive argument. Now child(we all know your a kid) go out into the sun and play some sports or something not get into adult discussing/having a proper argument unlike you. You have not made 1 decent argument. Which shows your intelligence your either a child or some 1s wife/mother or whatever left you for a welsh person.

You disgust me. Im fluent Welsh and you ABSOLUTELY DISGUST ME
Wales is a bilingual country and everything public should be bilingual

Hi Welsh Warrior: Try "you are" or "you're", not "your". And "how is" or "how's", not "hows". Here endeth lesson one.

Brummie Bill- you must have patience with WelshWarrior and so many of his nationalist cronies. One of the reasons why they are so touchy about Welsh is that they struggle so much with English. It is a convenient, yet flawed, way out of an inferiority complex. That's why they are intent on forcing Welsh upon the 98% of us in Wales who speak English as a first language. Perhaps providing counselling for them to deal with their rabid fanaticism would have been a wiser solution than giving them the reins of government, but hey, what can you do?

Point of order Gwentie: Firstly it's 75% in Wales that speak english, not 98% which is frankly laughable!! Stick to facts not fiction if you're going to post a comment!

You talk about inferiority complexes, isn't that the reason the english want everyone in the world to speak their language, because they haven't got the intelligence to learn any other language, it is you and your ilk that have the complex!!

All we want is the right to speak our own language in our own Country and to have services in our language if that is what we so desire, isn't that a basic right of a Country's citizens??

Welsh Warrior - I'm Welsh so I can't go 'back' to England, though I suppose I could emigrate, a possibility eminently desirable if Wales does get independence. We would collapse without the City of London which supports the entire British economy. We have no industrial infrastructure left, either. As for law-making powers, I hear a lot of nationalist voices demanding that we reject the British legal system and return to the tenth century laws of Hywel Dda. Admirable though the good Hywel was, and a pioneer of his time, we would be the laughing stock of Europe if we were to do such a thing. I think the nationalists would rather see us bankrupt and on our knees than united with England. It's time to grow up.

Craig, Ireland was fortunate with its timing, helped (and rightly so) by European funding to get a kickstart to its economy. If we go to Europe with our begging bowl now, we will find that we receive short shrift. Any available money will be given to the poorer, and perhaps more deserving, countries entering Europe over the next few years. And the EU will know that we need the money precisely because, out of petty spite, we have cut ourselves off from our neighbour and from an alliance which has afforded us mutual economic benefit for centuries.

Welsh Warrior - I admire your idealism and faith, but I wouldn't trust that shower down the Bay to run a betting shop, let alone the economy. I believe that a British solution is better, where we all pool our talents and resources to find a collective solution in order to survive in this increasingly competitive world.

Brummie you need 2 stop talking seriously until u can come up with a argument/debate then keep your yap shut because your comments are just as lame as you are.
And gwentie we wont b worse of then what we already are seriously people in wales are coming out of college and school and there's no work. Full stop. Ive put in 17 + application forms for jobs and only now i am actually getting some where with work and that's only because my cousin works in the place. And that goes for most people who are trying 2 find work.

The government says they are bringing more work yet u apply for the new jobs that have been advertised etc but there's a catch the only interview a maximum of about 20 people from the area all the rest of the employees come from other branches. so the government is full of as much bull as brummie is

Craig: Yes, you're right. Wales was (and still is) part of the British Empire.

The above comment is mine (Gwentie) - don't know why it came out as anonymous.

That was me (Gwentie) again...

You are naughty brummieBill. You have wound WelshWarrior up and he has fallen for it hook line and sinker. Was funny at first, but it is now sad, even a tad cruel. Just because you have fund a 'push button job' does not mean you have to keep pushing ! Give him a break.

150 plus hits on this blog. Now while accepting that some of the leads are banal, there are, occasionally, important issues raised - post office closure, education, press intrusion for example. They receive single figure responses. Question of priorities I think.

Actually he has not wound me up look at brummie as more of a entertainment factor we all know hes about 10 years old on his mummy's computer that's why nobody takes him serious but he is entertaining though not because hes funny but because of the ret@rdedness of his ignorance and as for post office closures the only people that really care about that is old people.

what about my answers? don't see anything wrong with them just stating the facts. But nobody can blame your ret@rdedness you are a brummie afterall

Funny how it's the (mostly) monoglot English who have a problem with this....

in the beginning wales never had any english speakers then the Saxons(english) came along after the Romans left and changed that now people really cant b assed to learn welsh but the people that do speak welsh should b able 2 speak welsh freely...wales = welsh = things should b in welsh its are language.
English is not are first language i cant speak welsh but i dont care about signs being in welsh and english somethings u got 2 learn 2 deal with. There are more important issues then bitching over signs that are in welsh and english.

Craig, I am Welsh, not English. My great-grandparents on my mother's side were Welsh- speaking, so I fully appreciate your wanting to speak Welsh in your everyday life and, believe it or not, I support you in that. However, the Welsh language lobby is visiting on English speakers in Wales the wrongs perpetuated against Welsh speakers in the nineteenth century. Its methods are reminiscent of fascism- look at any document pertaining to the implementation of the Welsh language Act for proof. I can cite examples if you like. I am sick and tired of having Welsh forced upon me. I feel discriminated against at work because I do not speak Welsh even though it is probably less relevant to my job than to any other. Road signs in my area are appearing in Welsh first even though it has been pretty much entirely English speaking here for two centuries. This is both disrespectful to the local population and dangerous. I fully respect your right to speak Welsh. I wish that you and other Welsh nationalists could respect mine to speak the language of Shakespeare and Milton, which is our birthright even though we were born in Wales.

Anonymous: You are sick of having Welsh forced upon you, I guess you don't like the boot on the other foot!! Welsh people had english forced on them and now you don't like it when the wheel turns!!
There is no such thing as discrimination at work with the language, it is a requirement in some instances in the same way that biology is a requirement to be a doctor, come on!!!
As for road signs being dangerous, what rubbish, there are no statistics to prove that bilingual road signs cause crashes and this isn't the only bilingual Country in the World, there are many like Canada, USA, Belgium etc. etc. and they don't seem to have these issues!! It is also a medical FACT that the brain immediately picks out words it understands from a jumble of words in different languages in a millisecond so you're just stirring it when there is no evidence to support your claim. Stick to writing facts if you're going to say anything, rather than from hysterical thoughts!!

Wasn't talking about writing style Gwentie, I was talking about the hysteria like you just wrote about "english speaking Welsh people not being welcome". That is hysteria and anti Welsh propaganda of the worst sort!
Every post you've made here is full of inaccuracies like that one, you are just trying to stoke anti Welsh speaker feeling!
And the funniest thing is, I don't speak Welsh and I don't fear anything from my Welsh speaking friends!! You don't need to be a Welsh speaker to want what's best for Wales and it's people!!

Gethin, I have already said that I respect and support any Welsh speaker's right to speak Welsh. I believe that Welsh, like all languages, has rich cultural value and I have always been in favour of rights for people to speak their native language. Indeed, my great-grandparents on my mother's side were Welsh-speaking. However, I find that I (and my English-speaking colleagues) am being forced to speak Welsh in work for no logical reason and with risk of disciplinary action if I refuse. Craig, if your friends are Welsh speakers but not nationalists, fine - I, too, have good friends who happen to speak Welsh. If your friends are extreme nationalists, however (and I doubt that they are), as a non-Welsh speaker, you'd be advised to watch your back.

Gwefan diddymu caethwasiaeth Senedd y Deyrnas Unedig (yn agor ffenestr newydd) ... Pamffled a gynhyrchwyd i gofio daucanmlwyddiant diddymu'r fasnach

Gwentie: If you mean are my Welsh speaking friends passionate about Wales, want Independence from england and all the other stuff then yes they are! But again I have nothing to fear from them, and again being a Nationalist doesn't make you a nutter, it just means you care!!!

You imply that Nationalists don't believe in all that stuff also, typical misinformation tactic! Nationalists also care about those things, they just put their own Country and people first, as do everyone if we were all honest about it!!

Craig: Would you describe yourself as a fascist?

"BrummieBill said:
Got a bit bored of this last week but popped on today to see how it was going as it numbered 173. Low and behold, various Taffies now arguing with eachother!! And Welsh W***er STILL blathering on in near-incomprehensive English!! Some wittering about Saxon-time Welsh with no English, etc... er, is that called ancient history!!?? Blimey, valleymen/lasses, get a grip!"

I agree with the article, as a Welsh-speaking, Welshman I see no need for the announcments to be in Welsh as well as English seeing as all Welsh speakers can understand English. What I can't agree with is the xenophobic attitude of BrummieBill, before you criticize our standard of English have a look at your own basic errors. I'm only 16 but I know from my Welsh-medium education that "eachother" is not a word and terms such as "W***er" shouldn't be used in any kind of intelligent debate, neither should borderline racist, antiquitated terms such as "Taffies" and "valleymen". People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially when that glass is sugar glass of ignorance, poor grammar and offensive language. Your comments serve only to exacerbate the Welsh nationalist movement giving them evidence of ignorant Englishmen who know nothing of modern day Wales. Not every Welsh speaker is a nationalist, I'm an example of that very sentiment and it is you not I that needs to "get a grip!" and appreaciate other cultures.

brummie i have finally found out why you hate welsh people so much.........your wife run off with a Welshman now we understand its ok do you need a shoulder 2 cry on poor little brummie

Nationalism is a very dangerous thing. Responsible for a great deal of conflict and untold suffering.Thankfully it is also becoming increasingly irrelevant in the global economy we now inhabit.
The majority of the world has moved on - including Northern Ireland - thank God that the voice of moderation was eventually heard in both those deeply divided communities.
Welsh nationalism was once petty - remember the Sons of Glendower? - but has now matured and has developed a regional focus. Wales needs to form a relationship not with the English but with the multi nationals that now 'rule' our lives - the behaviour of Sony, BP, LG and the like will affect the prosperity of Wales.
Nationalists, please move on. You are an anachronism.

BrummieBill, please stop winding WW up - I know you are very good at it, but you have made your point.

Dweller he has not wound me up hes a fun play thing. And only because some 1 sticks up for their country it does not make them a nationalist psycho or whatever the hell u want to call them.
The fact of the matter is wales has and always will b screwed over by england its happened in the passed its happening now but not just with wales but the rest of the UK mainly due to the fact of how corrupt politicians are.
Basically they say Fu*ck any 1 whos not rich and like i give a fu*ck 2 any 1 who is poor

Hear hear, Moseleyblu. Nothing wrong with bursting into a chorus of the Internationale every so often...

Dweller nah that wouldn't get celtic approval after all your just a boarder dweller

so your calling Owain Glyndwr a myth?

Lets add a bit of Hamish Henderson and somthing from the Malkies. Certain we'll be an international sensation.

WelshWarrior, can youn use your influence to get us the Millennium Stadium for our inaugural concert please.

Saw Los de Abajo perform live recently. Translates as 'those from below' - a Mexican band that emerged out of the Zapatista movement. Maybe they could be our supporting group.

no no its not about being ashamed of your country having choirs its about your country constantly being stereotyped u can easily make a joke about the welsh etc etc but you make a joke about the english then you instantly become a nationalist etc etc

Not so sure the people who lived in Welshpool or Oswestry and countless other towns he sacked during the early 15th Century would agree with you Craig. - Glyndwr was a member of the nobility. The surf class paid the price of his dispute with De Grey - over land, of course. Wales`was then a desperately poor country - rebellion and war merely made things worse for those least equipped to cope. Like all wars I guess.

What an amateurish website, Hafwen! I think they should do something about those lurid colours. Check out abergavenny.co.uk :'In the turbulent years of the early 15th century, Wales was ravaged by the effects of Owain Glyndwr's attempts to establish a sovereign Welsh state. Abergavenny was attacked in 1404 and St. Mary's Priory burnt. A full-scale battle on Campstone Hill near Grosmont between Owain's forces and those of Henry of Monmouth (later Henry V) resulted in casualties of over 8,000'.
Similarly, in Grosmont: '800 Welshmen died here in battle in 1405 during Owain Glyndwr's rebellion' (http://www.britainexpress.com/wales/tour/wye/index.htm)
I'm not a fan of war and find it disturbing that nationalists worship Owain Glyndwr in this way. I agree with Border Dweller and MoseleyBlu; oppression is about class privilege, not nationhood. Nationalism is a dangerous, extremist ideology, prone, ultimately to militarism.

Actually, I'm a teacher in an English medium school. I don't even need Welsh to answer the phone, but I am still required to learn it. As I have repeated ad nauseam on this site, I support your right to speak Welsh but I see no earthly reason why I should waste my precious time on a language which, in practice, I will not use. There's too much spirit of vengeance in the nationalist ethos; just because you have to speak English, we have to speak Welsh. Far from uniting Wales under your flag-waving triumphalism, you are risking a break up of the country with your dogmatic determination to impose the language on the 80% of the population who do not speak Welsh.

Quote: Look at what the British ideology did to the Cornish, Welsh, Scottish and Cumbric language, culture and way of life!
=================================================
Here, here!! Well said Hafwen!

As to the actual question raised...

The Welsh Language Act 1993 was long overdue official recognition of the language spoken over >90% of Wales till the 1850s. Thereafter, the language suffered a steep decline in proportional numbers of speakers, although the absolute numbers continued to rise until the early decades of the 20th century, peaking at just over 1 million. I stress that for the great majority of these, Welsh was not a political symbol, or an emblem of Welshness - the majority of Welsh-speakers (as opposed to the small Eisteddfod-going vocal minority) led very hard lives, and had limited only limited control of English. (My grandfather for example, reared in 1930s and 40s Pembrokshire, had to be taught English formally at the age of 16) The number of speakers continued to decline until 1981, reaching a low of 500000, representing 18% of the population of Wales. Nevertheless, at this point, the reality was that almost a fifth of Wales' population had no linguistic rights, and spoke as native language a tongue that was not recognized by their government, nor officially 'existed'. Welsh speakers were in effect second-class citizens, by virtue of their native language. The Welsh language act of 1993 goes someway to addressing that abuse of Human Rights (a small one, admittedly, but a real one, the pain of which can only be appreciated by someone in such a situation.)

If, as I suspect Mr.Dyson is only really asking why the Welsh Language act is enforced to the same degree across the whole of Wales, the 'political' answer would be the focus on 'One Wales' - that's to say the Aseembly's agenda for a unified, bilingual and green Wales.

I would ask though, why Mr.Dyson is so concerned about the matter? (assuming that impatience on what must have been a rainy day at Cardiff Central Station to get back to sunny, monoglot Birmingham, isn't sufficient ground to raise the matter!)

I am, btw a native Welsh speaker, born and raised in Cardiff.

Cyfarchion cynnes i chi'r Cymry yno yng ngwlad yr iaith fain!

Carwyn Greaves

I'm not welsh, not even european and I totally understand this act!! I am from Canada and the province of Quebec have about the same act to protect french language in the country. I am really proud to speak both languages, I am a french Canadian but since my childhood I learned english and even spanish due to our geography. I am very fluent in english and I find that is an assett essential to the future of every nation to know where they come from as well as where they are going. Quebec is only a small amount of french native among the sea of english one that are canada and usa together but we managed to keep our culture and what makes us special by act like this one. If we did it, Wales can do it too. How can someone be so stubborn to deny what other cultures can bring to your every day life? Should every citizen of the world start talking mandarin because there is more speakers of this language than any other one? If children of 12 years old in here can speak 2 languages without problems, why should english natives at least try to learn some words of Welsh? If you just wanna speak English well go to England!

P.S.: I know some of you will say I am not Welsh so I don't understand where the problem is, but I don't care, i'm just someone proud to talk to be able to anybody in my country in their own languages.

Good job I'm keeping an eye on this topic as the Gwentie persona keeps popping in with yet more lies and anti Weslh rhetoric!!
Firstly, the assembly government is an elected body, voted for in a referendum on devolution and then again the respective members were voted in during the assembly elections that anyone in Wales could vote in.
The members of the assembly had a pay increase less than the UK government and many of the assembly members refused their rises, so there's an other lie by the gwentie persona!
The third lie is that you can only use Welsh in patagonia, just maybe try visiting the North or West parts of Wales and you will hear it being used everyday and in some places you will be hard pushed to hear english.
Oh yes and the fourth lie which you keep on saying on here, that english speakers are second class citizens in Wales, this is the worst lie of them all, it is a lie put about by a group of people who want to see Wales become part of england and see the language die and be gone!!
Well don't hold your breath gwentie persona, it's not gonna happen anytime soon!!

I seem to have rattled you with my home truths, Craig. It is true that the Assembly was narrowly voted for (by the skin of its teeth, you must admit) but my suggestion was that this particular nationalist government was not elected democratically since Labour received 43% of the vote and the current ruling Party, Plaid Cymru, received only 25% of the vote. Labour seems to be giving Plaid the run of the place so that, while the people voted for a socialist government, they find themselves living under a nationalist one.
I didn't mention the Westminster politicians (though I'm not impressed by their greed either, Craig). Given that the Assembly politicians said they'd be different, though, it is rather disappointing that they took an 8.3% pay rise when everyone else is having to make do with below inflation pay rises (or, effectively, pay cuts). I find it incredible that you can defend AMs the day after the release of the report on their expenses. Second homes when they live just outside Cardiff, a £2 000 sofa, £1 000 surround sound TV... Some of them are so hard up that they have to make claims for pyrex bowls and towels. Almost half a million pounds in total, just on expenses. If this is anything to go by, I don't believe there'll be many AMs refusing their pay rise, whatever they say now.
It's disingenuous to suggest that I and others want Wales to become a part of England; I simply believe we're best off as a strong partner within the UK. It won't do us any good at all to take our begging bowl to Brussels.
To me, staying silent over this nasty and dangerous growth of nationalism would be indicative of a lack of backbone. The fight continues.

Ah gwentie, with your first sentence you show yourself to be the liar I claimed you are!!
Your previous post said they weren't elected and now you say they were voted in by a small majority, make up your mind!!
As to the WAG, well let's give them some leeway eh!, any fledgling government, which is what they are will make mistakes and errors, give it time and they will be much better for Wales then the UK givernment, assuming they get the powers needed to do that. Wales should be given the same powers as the Scottish parliament, having to go cap in hand to westminster to make the simplest of decisions means effective government is always going to be difficult!!

Sorry - forgot to put my name on last post.

I can't believe people are still slagging of Welsh in this day and age.
Welsh has a right to exist, it has a right to be protected, it's been part of Britain for hundreds of years, get over it already.

Gwentie, it is you that needs to wake up, Labour hasn't been socialist for the last 10 years, what planet are you on?? Labour as still in power in the WAG even if they are being shored up by Plaid, incidentally, before you say it, I don't vote Plaid!!
You still try and convince there is an issue in the jobs market which there isn't!! I'll say it again, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a job if your ONLY qualification is speaking Welsh!!! A Welsh speaker for example couldn't do my job [engineering] if his/her only qualification is speaking Welsh, just couldn't do it!! He/She would also NEED engineering qualifications!!!
What you say is complete rubbish on this basis!!
No HR manager would employ someone on the basis of speaking Welsh on it's own, that is utter fantasy and deliberate misinformation for political gain!
Just for the record, the capitals are for emphasis, not shouting!!

Gwentie: The only time Welsh is an advantage is if a) the job specification asks for it specifically, b) The candidates are equal on all other qualifications, c) The job is in an area where Welsh is dominant! And yes there are still places up North and in the West where that is so!
An engineer with inferior qualifications to another candidate won't get the job just because he/she speaks Welsh. Check out jobs in Conwy County for example, still large parts are Welsh speaking yet application forms say "Welsh speaker desirable", not essential, but desirable, hardly the positive discrimination you speak of is it.
As I said already, this is a lie put about by people with political advantage to be made by making people believe it's the truth, which it clearly isn't. Companies just couldn't operate effectively like that.
Oh and I only try and emphasise my points because this blog doesn't have html [as far as I can tell], not for any other reason.

MICHAEL HORACZEK...Welsh may have been around before English. Sopwiths were around before jumbo jets. Does that mean next time I want to go on holiday to New York I should jump in a bi-plane? No...it's called progression.

Gwentie, first of all can you provide an example of an incident that has led you lo feel like a second class citizen in your own country? The fact that you need to be bilingual in order to secure a job is in no way a form of discrimination. If you are refused a post because of your colour, gender, nationality, religion, then that would be discrimination because they are characteristics that you can’t change, but a language is a skill that can be acquired by all!
You state that job applications for the public sector ask 'Do you speak Welsh? Well the same job would also ask for a command of English! No monoglot Welsh speaker could ever be employed in the public sector! You say that you’re in favour of Welsh being taught on the curriculum, but on the other hand state that you are against having a language forced upon you. It seems to me that you’re quite happy to learn a colonial language such as English, French or Spanish, (which would be useful abroad) but totally against the idea of learning your native language. You certainly have an imperialist mindset.
Do you perhaps view Welsh as an inferior language? Is that why you have such a problem with it?
Imagine what Europe would look and sound like if everyone had an attitude like yours? The diversity of languages spoken would be cut to the few strongest colonial languages which would be a huge loss, and would make the World a poorer place.
And why do you fear living in a bilingual country? If all parts of Wales became bilingual, how on earth would that be detrimental? That was the attitude towards the language during the 1850s.
You come across to me as someone whose mind has been colonised, and is full of prejudice against the language. Thank goodness for people like Craig and Welsh Warrior who can appreciate the importance of their native language even though they don’t speak it.

It doesn’t surprise me that you’re a Labour fan. Labour have a long tradition of being anti-Welsh and jump at the chance to brand Welsh speakers as “Racists�? simply for speaking up about their rights to exist, (remember the Gwynedd councillor Seimon Glyn who spoke up about the erosion of his Welsh speaking community in Gwynedd?) Welsh Labour love to use the language as a political football, which is exactly what you’re doing.

No doubt you’ll call me a zealot, but I’m only challenging your anti-Welsh views.
93452e

let's start an esperanto revivalist group.

Then again, why bother, suspect we are all going to be speaking Chinese within a generation

Scott, Scott, Scott!! It was a joke, man! I have no time to do such trivia! Merely commenting on what has become THE Welsh Language debate site... for the twenty of you keenies, half of whom are agin it. Enjoy

In fairness, Aneurin Bevan was a good man...

I'm afraid your reply smacks of narcissism, Hafwen. You want 95% of the indigenous population to learn Welsh for the 5% minority Welsh speaking population not to have to speak English. A lot of Welsh speakers themselves are not in favour of such a policy. I'm afraid, Hafwen, that you are dreaming. Wales is not a bilingual country and, even with repressive language legislation, it is unlikely to become so if people's hearts are not in it. I suggest that if language activists want us to learn Welsh, they should step back for a while, stop dawbing shops with their hysterical grafitti, stop complaining about inequality when the Welsh Language Board alone gets £13 million, not to mention all the cash S4C gets (£117 million - BBC Wales figures), and the huge amounts spent on road signage and duplication of literature in Wales. Finally, it would help if they stopped ranting at the rest of us to learn the language. Then maybe those of us who enjoy culture in general might even feel inclined to give it a go. Until then, forget it.

Our roots are not only Welsh - we are also British and European. Originally, we are all, according to evolutionists, from Africa. That, I think, really is something to be celebrated. Separatism and an over-emphasis on nationhood leads to wars, hatred and misery, ridiculous when considering our common humanity.

Welsh Warrior - let me know when they start forcing Welsh on you. We can compare notes - and believe me, that day will come.

Anonymous:: Another liar on the board, It is not 5% Welsh speaking, it's 25% and that's not my figure, it's from the Office of National Statistics. If you're going to post, don't post lies!!
Gwentie Quote: "let me know when they start forcing Welsh on you. We can compare notes - and believe me, that day will come."
What a load of hysterical rubbish!

I doubt that id ever be forced 2 learn welsh it all depends on the kind of job you are looking for may b 1 or 2 jobs require you to know welsh but the majority of jobs dont.
But what i am being forced to do is work for 40 hrs a week earning £1.57 per hr reason being im on the dole the government(BRITISH) government tell us to get jobs yet there's nothing around here then they tell us to move away if thats the problem,how the hell are you suppose to move away and your only earning £126 every 2 weeks.
People see people on the dole as a lower species lazy or whatever but that's bullsh!t.I want 2 work but there is no work around here unless you work in a call center and the majority of them are commision based or if you work in care work(not something i want 2 do due 2 the fact that profession is depressing)
This country is screwed up big time and you got people b!tching about small little issues like welsh being on road signs.
Whats next the government forceing people 2 join the army if they have been on the dole for a certain amount of time?What they need 2 do is stop closing up shop and sending them off 2 the likes of india or whatever becuase its cheaper its bull the economy is screwed not just in wales but in all of Britain they send you on these schemes to make it look as if employment is up where as in reality its still the same or getting worse but they just try 2 hide that behind stupid little schemes that half the time don't lead to anything in 1 week i have applied for 30 jobs still haven't heard anything from 1 of them nothing ziltch zero.
and now i am being forced 2 work 40 hrs a week for £1.57 an hr talking about slave labor its ridiculous what happened 2 human rights.
And then where i am working it might not even lead 2 a permanent job i even got told by the dole(the new scheme people) that 70% of the time you wont get a job where they have put u on placement. Its bull but since i am on the dole i dont have the right to say stuff like that right after all i got 2 b lazy or dont want 2 work.
I was in college for 2 and a half years studying IT left college since there was no job opportunity's around had to go on the dole and its been about 9 months still no luck in the job sector.
Half the time they expect you to have previous job experience(ive been in college for 2 and a half years) how the hell am i going 2 have experience when ive been in education its just wacky

yeah while you have MP's getting pay rises they 4 get about the "Working" man they 4 get about everyday people while they are driving their fancy cars(or having people driving them about) having nice fancy homes.
Hell they even buy holiday homes here in wales which raises the housing prices. This country keeps getting worse and worse and worse and the government are the 1s that are making it worse and worse and worse politics is corrupt. They don't care about the public they only care about themselves. They have lost touch with the public they have lost touch with reality.
And the reality is people in the country are struggling 2 make a living while they sit back and smoke cigars and drink tea with presidents of other nations.
At this rate the UK will become a 3rd world country becuase its not dealing with its own problems instead they are dealing with other peoples problems.

Obviously don't know you Welsh Warrior and guess we will never meet but I'll take your comments at face value and want you to know you have my heart felt sympathy.It is an appaling situation you find yourself in and can understand both your frustration and your sence of hopelessness. Thr government mantra 'education education education' is little more than rhetoric - I note that you have spent time at college gaining qualifications in ICT. The promise was that your future as a skilled individual in a crucial industry would be secure.Hardly surprising you feel bitter - sounds like you did your bit.
I also concur with you surprise about the 'bitching about names on roads signs'. I have to confess to my surprise about how this blog has developed. Admittedly it has moved well away from the original issue but it strikes me as absurd how much response it has generated. Now if Gwentie is correct (and she is actually) that there is discrimination against English speaking Welsh citizens then that is wrong - very wrong actually and if perpetrators are protected by law in doing that then it is immoral and we should be ashamed. It's not that there are just a few jobs that require Weish (if applying to teach Welsh of course I would expect the person specification to include a command of the language) but it is the 'hidden' prejudice of the interview panel that leads to discrimination. Worse, it is the pressure/bullying put on the more open minded individuals by the zealots to conform (and that has been apparent in this blog) that makes the process/ tactic so disturbing.

I do disagree with you on this Welsh Warrior - that Britain is becoming a third world country - there is huge wealth in this nation - what needs to happen is that wealth needs to be redistributed . . . . no better stop now

Gwentie: Where is your proof that it is only 5%??
If you had any idea of life outside your own area, you'd see that the Census data is accurate in it's 25% figure!! Get yourself over to the North or West of Wales, plenty of Welsh speaking areas there, and try telling them they can't use their own language in their own Country.
You keep posting this lie with no proof to back it up, I'll keep posting the truth to reset the balance, prove your figures or leave it alone!
Border Dweller: There is no truth at all in this anti english speaking rubbish with jobs. I'm an english speaking Welshman living in a Welsh speaking area and I have NEVER come across this discrimination which you say exists, it's more anti Welsh propaganda, it doesn't exist!!

5% native tongue speakers, Craig - I heard the figure on Radio Wales a few months ago, but as with all figures, including the census (where people can say they speak Welsh even if they only know a few rudimentary phrases), you can rarely be completely accurate. I'm perfectly happy for people to use whatever language they like - I haven't said at any point that I'm against people speaking Welsh, quite the contrary. To be honest, your ranting sounds disproportionate after Welsh Warrior's comment; the employment situation is far more important than this. I see you're still in denial over the discrimination issue.
The Polish pub outcry does sound as if it was rooted in racism. Since it's a private business, I don't see why they shouldn't use Polish exclusively if they so wish.

ROFL at gwentie, try coming over to Ynys Mon and telling us that only 5% of us are native Welsh speakers, I hope you have a good pair of running shoes.
You need to take a trip out of your little english speaking ghetto once in a while and see what is really happening in our lovely Country.
Wales and Welsh is in a renaissance, get with it dear.

Scott - I wouldn't dream of saying that only 5% of people in Ynys Mon are native Welsh speakers. I am fully in support of Welsh being recognised as the first language in areas where the population is predominantly Welsh speaking. I wouldn't call the English speaking part of Wales 'little', either, or a 'ghetto'. I promise that if I visit, I'll learn a few Welsh phrases. How's that?

Renaissance, eh? Does that mean Cardiff is the new Florence? 'Nel mezzo del camin di nostra vita....'

Just made redundant, living in a Welsh speaking area of North Wales, really Welsh name, Welsh speaker from birth, 20+ applications sent out, 2 interviews, no job to date!!!
And before anyone says it, I'm qualified to HNC in electrical engineering. If this positive discrimination exists [which I doubt] then it's not much in existence in my case, I wish it were.
As someone else has said already, it seems to be poison spread by people with an ulterior motive.

Give me an example of this 'hatred' that I express, Craig. I think this is what they call 'projection'. My local Council's Welsh Language Scheme outlines that 'Linguistic ability will be considered as one of the many relevant skills when appointing staff', that is, in all jobs, regardless of whether Welsh is needed or not. I've given up expecting a rational response from you, by the way.
Dewi, I'm sorry about the redundancy- the job market has become appallingly difficult, I know. I'm not arguing that positive discrimination governs everything, just that it's an element, perhaps more so here in the south (mostly in public services rather than private businesses - thank you very much, Welsh Language Act) because of the sheer aggression of Welsh language promotion here. A friend of mine who has moved to North Wales does say that he finds it more open up there.

You'd better re-read my posts, Craig.

Angharad, there is positive discrimination in Wales, and at no point have I contradicted myself on that. I suggested that it is possible that the situation in the North may not be as bad - I don't know because I don't live there, though judging by the viciousness of some of the responses on this board, it probably is. By the way, the 'friend' reference was meant as a gesture of peace, but perhaps his view of greater openness in North Wales is misplaced.

The quotation from the Council report is merely an illustration of my argument that whereas in the past 'linguistic ability' was not a prerequisite for all jobs at the Council, it has now become so, with the consequence that people who do not speak Welsh (and it obviously refers to Welsh and not any other language) will be disadvantaged even if the job being applied for does not require a knowledge of Welsh.

Furthermore, as Border Dweller has said, discrimination is insidious. It's difficult to find any outright reference in Assembly literature which instructs public sector employers to discriminate actively in their appointments, as you will understand.
My reference to local authority recruitment policy is from Torfaen County Borough documentation which you can request via telephone, should you so wish. My own personal experience is of course anecdotal but if you look at Estyn's document on Welsh language policy in schools, you will see that what I have said is true. For information on Assembly Members' expenses which I have also referred to, you may refer to the BBC News website, and for any other details on the Welsh Assembly's profligacy in its expenditure on the Welsh Language, you might wish to refer to the 'Freedom of Information Questions' section on the Welsh Assembly website. I hope that will satisfy your queries about my sources.

Not making much progress with this are we. Views are entrenched, somewhat defensive and are now repetitive. Leaves the debate mired.
Agree though that Cardiff is a 'reborn' city. An impressive place now.

Gwentie, you can’t say one minute, and I quote you, “I support your right to speak and do business in Welsh�?, and also “I have always been in favour of rights for people to speak their native language�? and then later on be aggressively against the Welsh Language Act. And then you claim that you don’t express any hatred towards the language!
As has been said before, without this language act, Welsh speakers would not be able to do in their daily lives what you claim to support in the quotes above!
It is a sad fact that such an Act is needed in the first place.

Boring, boring, here we go round the mulberry bush garbage.
Nobody is forcing anything on you, change the record will you.
The only people who have had a language forced on them is the Welsh, they've had english forced on them for years. Grow up and stop your bleating. All you're doing is re-hashing the same boring and tired argument all the time, and it doesn't get any more convincing the more you say it.

I'm stunned as a non welsh speaking welshman that others here can deny that welsh is being forced upon us!! In just the last few months my council letters arrive in Welsh first, and I nearly throw them in the bin before I spot the english. It's getting worse every year and I can tell you all... a backlash is coming soon from the hardworking non welsh speakers funding all this waste

Hafwen - let's just split up. We don't want Welsh first here and we don't want your poisonous nationalism. Partition for Wales seems to be the only answer. Judging from the letters in the Western Mail and South Wales Echo yesterday, the backlash has already begun.
As for the Olympics, ask the athletes whether they regard themselves as British and whether they feel proud on the rostrum to be representing the country with the oldest democracy in Europe. I suspect that most of them are happy to work with other top class athletes in Britain and enjoy being part of a successful team.
On the subject of independence for Wales, you have the media and that preposterous institution, the WAG, on your side. But hear this - we will fight you every step of the way.

Gwentie, is that the same Welsh athlete that pulled a Welsh flag from his hiding place and proudly flew it when he got his medal?
Hmm, proud to be British, I think not.
It's beyond me how someone who calls themselves Welsh, yet have such a nasty and vitriolic attitude towards what is your real language, a language your Family used to have, shame on you.

Gwentie, your views just goes to demonstrate what a strange nation Wales is. I wonder how many other countries there are around the world where the natives have not only turned their backs on the language of their forefathers, but also hold and express very negative attitudes towards their native tongue.
I cannot imagine an Englishman or a Frenchman expressing such views about their language.
To be honest, and Steve Dyson aside, I know many English men and women who have a far healthier attitude towards Welsh than you do. These are people who clearly do enjoy culture.
And can I ask you, is there anything about Wales that you are proud of? You wish to see the end of the assembly, you don’t approve of a dot..cym web domain for your own country, you clearly can’t stand the Welsh language, you are proud to see your countrymen and women represented on a British flag that is a complete insult to Wales, if you are proud to be Welsh, you have a bizarre way of showing it!

You're right, Hafwen. I'm not very proud of what's happening in Wales at the moment. Nationalism is a demeaning ideology that leads to misery and hatred, as I have said; unfortunately, it is currently poisoning the nation's psyche.
Other than in sport, which ought, anyway, always to be in the spirit of fun and, ultimately, international unity, I have no time for flag-waving of any type. Finally, the dot.cym domain will just make us a laughing stock.

Yes. Nationalism sickens me.

Mind you, I think most of the flags on view were provided by the Welsh Assembly, cos they all had 'Millenium 2000' written on them. Got to give credit to the athletes, though. Fine performances, and they deserved a welcome home. I personally, would have preferred a reception less reminiscent of a Nuremberg Rally....

Terrific to see the Olympians do so well. But correct me if I am wrong, but of the three gold medals, were not two the result of 'team GB'? So when the Union pulls together (in this case, literally) Wales benefits.
Gwentie, bit ott comparing the reception to Nuremberg but I suspect you know that. Did make me smile though. More like Rome October 1922 I thought.

Note what is happening in South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Bet it's give some of you ideas - oh come on then, let's go and annex Shropshire.

Welsh Warrior, you are right, there are far more important issues facing this country.

Ha ha! Yes, Border Dweller - the Rome analogy does seem more fitting. Would that make Rhodri the Benito figure? It's about time he got a nice costume with a flashy pair of epaulettes. Did notice the members of the choir were wearing black shirts but maybe I really am pushing it a bit far now...
I agree - employment is a more important issue, Welsh Warrior. It would be great if the £365,000,000 spent per year on Assembly Members and adminstration costs and some (I stress, not all) of the £40 million spent annually on the Welsh language were to be used to help sort out the dire employment situation. Why are so many public service jobs contracted out to private companies, for example? If the Assembly really wants to be socialist, why does it not deal with this appalling injustice which is keeping so many people on the poverty line?

Aha, the last hope of the unionist who is losing the battle, Liken proud Welsh people to Nazi Germany or fascist Italy, how predictable and how pathetic!
I dare say you wouldn't say the same about the reception the english swimmer received in her home town of Macclesfield would you "anonymous" eh!! even though it was no different to ours except for the type of flag being waved!! This more than any of your other posts shows your true disdain of the Welsh people, thank you.
As for the £40 million spent on the language, Ha, prove it!!
I can think of plenty of other things this UK government is wasting money on and I mean wasting, not supporting the UK's oldest native language!!

There is no Welsh language daily newspaper because it would go bust. Not enough readers. There was a plan to publish one - Y Byd (The World) but it fell through earlier this year. It would have required a subsidy from the Welsh Assembly, and they decided it wasn't a runner. A sore point with the language lobby.

Shows how out of touch with things you are David!! While it may not be part of Plaid's current manifesto, there is a group inside the party looking at it again!! Incidentally I'm not a Plaid voter, so don't know why you mentioned them really, you can be a proud Welshman and not have to support Plaid you know!! Being a bit simplistic with that view aren't you?
As for the swimmer, who cares where she's from, the point was valid whatever Town it was!

Depends on your view on "looking". Also when you say nobody supports Independence, try telling the SNP that!! It will first come in Scotland, the move towards it is gaining momentum as we speak, more and more Welsh people are supporting the call for powers for the Welsh assembly and once that happens, and it will, it can only be a matter of time before Wales goes Independent too, it may not be in my life time, but it will arrive!! Currently Scotalnd and Wales are losing out badly in all areas due to england concentrating resources on it's own and in particular the SE and who can blame them, everyone looks after their own don't they???
Makes sense then that if we were independent we would give the people of Wales a fairer chunk of the apple, whatever nationality they might be, yes including the english living here!! And don't come back with the "only if we made them speak Welsh" rubbish, that's just anti Welsh propaganda!!

I'd say black boat shaped mutz for normal business and plumed hats with Ruritanian tassles for ceremonial matters - when he has to meet the new consul for San Marino, for example, or attends a rugby match. No, Rhodri in tight breeches working in the fields would put a rather catastrophic strain on the eyes, though they could import some well-honed young Italian men for the propaganda literature. Black and white photographs, of course.

Here's the latest pro-independence propaganda from Helen Mary Jones, certainly reminiscent of 1920s Italy in tone and melodrama:
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/feature-news/2008/08/05/

Then another article with the opposing view.
www.walesonline.co.uk/.../features/2008/08/21/the-crippling-cost-of-independence-91466-21575167/

And Craig- where's your evidence that the South East of England keeps all the money for itself. Sources please!!! And which apple are you talking about?

gwentie, you think you're funny about the outfits, maybe the little inglanders that you so love could start to wear those silly morris dancing outfits, what do you think muppet?

Ok I admit it - I demonstrated a real lapse in insight, realism and practicality. Taking a` whole English county was too big an ask first time.
So how about Steep Holm? We can sail from Milford Haven (hugely symbolic)and plant our flag with pride singing our anthem with gusto.
Problem is, unlikely anyone would notice and certainly no one would care. Except the Puffins.
Typifies the Welsh Independence movement I guess.

Gwentie, I’ve read the pro independence piece by Helen Mary Jones, and from what I can see it’s quite a reasonable argument. I see no problem with its tone and I certainly wouldn’t class it as melodramatic! There is nothing wrong with having faith in your own people, to have confidence in your own country. Or do you go along with the belief that the Welsh are inferior to other nations?
For some reason, your second website didn’t work, so I can’t comment on that.
Responding to Border Dweller, regarding annexing Shropshire, you are clearly confusing British (sorry English) Nationalism with Welsh nationalism. Since when did Welsh nationalism equate to invading a bordering county or country?
It’s a sad fact that there are a few Welsh people on this blog who have been Anglicised to such an extent that they have clearly lost their identity.

I'm glad you changed your name to "Border dummy" because that is clearly waht you are, you have no intention of having any reasoned argument/debate on any matter, instead you choose to throw childish tantrums and insults. I have no wish to reply further to you, you clearly don't have the intellect to discuss matters in a mature way.

I think your point is proved Craig.

Hafwen, accept that nationalism can take on a number of manifestations - I guess as many as there are nations. But is it not essentially an expansionist creed?
Nationalism frightens me Hafwen. Does not the fact that the BNP has taken root in the guise of English nationalism trouble you? Now let me emphasise that Welsh nationalism is a far cry from the odious views of the BNP - I would certainly never be tongue in cheek about them - but like it or not, both are out of the same nationalist stable.

I don't believe for one minute that we would exhibit the worst excesses of nationalism Gwyndaf - we are at heart a gentle people.
Don't know enough to comment about the formation of those small nation states you mention but will accept that their birth and history is placid and benign. Will add though that Switzerland mainifested it's nationalism and self interest via a number of ways including the formation of mercenary armies who, in the pay of others, laid waste to sovereign nations. A national self interest (and greed)they maintained in the 20th century with the harbouring of the war booty from occupied Europe and the laundering of the wealth stolen from the Jewish people.
Like you I admire the achievements of the Irish, but until recently it was a war torn island that was racked, for 500 years, by the worst excesses of nationalism. Thank God they seem to be over that now.

However I am intrigued by the 'Berwick on Tweed' phenomena. But maybe that is about self interest too - the grass is greener????

Necessary steps along the road to independence:

1. Death of the language as a day-to-day medium of communication
2. Welsh education for all at school, with the language left behind at the school gates.
3. Plenty of Welsh language versions of everything, which nobody except a few cranks reads or uses.

Ireland has already made it with Gaelic, and Wales is following on behind with Welsh. However, the above are only necessary, but not sufficient conditions.

HaHaHa education is overrated u can have all the qualifications in the world and still end up in a dead end job. Especially if your young and have never had a job since most jobs ask for adleast 2 job references.
I finished college 9/10 months ago been on the dole for that long until this week when i got a job at a factory although i have qualifications in IT i am working in a factory as a line operator basically putting products into boxes dont take a genius 2 do that most boering thing known to man kind and working for 4.60 an hr is not much either so much for education eh?

Thanks ap Ieuan. The average, easy-going, English speaking Welshman or woman would read your contribution and think: Another nutter from the language Taleban. If you don't realise this then you are out of touch with your own country.

Why should it be a public debate anywhere except Wales Dyson?? You're just an antiquated a***hole that has minumum knowledge of the subject and cares little to actually get to know the subject you're debating on. You have no idea how insulting your comments on this blog are to Welsh people, whether they can speak the language or not. You are a throwback to the neanderthal english of the 19th and early 20th Century. Try being a proper journalist for a change and actually learn something about the subject, rather than why you started this blog, on a whim because "you" had been slightly inconvenienced because you weren't intelligent enough to read the english version.

You're pathetic border dweller, you talk about anger, of course there will be anger at blogs like this one, the Welsh people have a basic right to speak their language in their Country and have services offerred in their language in their Country if they want, that is a right of any free Country in the World, why should it not be so for Welsh people?
You english have done the same all over the World, destroyed and displaced local cultures wherever you have gone, Americam Indians, Native Australian aborigines, the list goes on and even when you holiday abroad you are the same, demanding theat locals speak english, it is you people who are pathetic for always wanting to destroy rather than encourage.
The Welsh have rights too, remember it.

Hi Carol. Don't take Steve too seriously. He's just being provocative, and very successfully. It's his job. Carl - You don't know what you are talking about. Llew99 - the Welsh can vote for independence if they want. But they don't.

Why do I not know david?? Because I am a foreigner maybe?
Are you saying I am wrong to say the Welsh have a right to use their language and have services in their own language in their own Country. I don't thin that is wrong, it is something I enjoy in Denmark and it is something Steve Dyson enjoys in his own Country, so why not the Welsh.
It is obviously you that doesn't know what you're talking about.

Anonymous; I have extensive knowledge of the North of Wales, havin lived there for 2 years during a work palcement.
Let me make this point to you:
Just because the majority don't speak Welsh, doesn't mean the minority should lose out, it's still their language and they still have a right to use it and have access to services in their language, itrrespective of the fact that they are able to speak english, that really doesn't matter, in fact it shows that they don't fear the english language like the english fear Welsh.
I am told by many friends in Wales that the desire for a national assembly with the same powers as Scotland is wanted by a majority in Wales, apparently over 60% now, maybe not independence but it clearly shows that Welsh people want more of a say in their own affairs.

David, the Irish language was in a very poor state prior to them gaining independence, and after 700 years of English occupation, it’s not surprising that the majority of them who learned the language at school refused to use it outside because they had been brainwashed over the centuries to believe that their language was worthless and inferior, now doesn’t that sound familiar here in Wales? Do you see the pattern here? Welsh is in a far stronger state at the moment, although you do wonder how on earth it has survived for so long when we have enemies of the language within our own country!
Anonymous, do you live in Wales? Welsh people can not speak Welsh whenever and wherever they want, if they so choose. That is a ridiculous statement! Have you ever tried getting services in Welsh in a High street bank, Supermarket, most high street shops, Post offices, Pubs, Restaurants, even the library or the leisure centre? They may have the odd bilingual sign here and there, and a few Welsh speaking members of staff if it isn’t their day off, but its pot luck as to whether you can actually use your language. And reading the odd bilingual sign here and there is not the same as getting service in the language, it’s merely tokenism.

Hafwen,
is there a contradiction between your comment to David (Welsh is in a far stronger state.....)and your comment to Anon. where you suggest Welsh language usage is little more that token. Or am I missing somthing ?

But can you really blame these "Nationalist's" for having a sore head against the english i mean after all it was the english government that tried 2 abolish welsh all together. Lets take a little look at what Else they did

1.Try 2 abolish Welsh Language
2.Flood Welsh Village to supply water for liverpool
3.Build Huge pipeline across wales only for it 2 end up in Tirley or Gloucester.
4.Use wales for its coal

And also isn't there a place somewhere in england where if a welsh man is seen out at night then the Englishman can legally shoot that welshman with a crossbow? Old law or not(and even if the law didnt come 2) still shows why the welsh have a dislike for the english.

You may say all this is old blah blah blah slavery was old but we still hear about it the wounds of what the "English" or "Saxons" did to welsh people in the passed are still there and no matter what, you can not erase history...

Quote:
"And also isn't there a place somewhere in england where if a welsh man is seen out at night then the Englishman can legally shoot that welshman with a crossbow? Old law or not(and even if the law didnt come 2) still shows why the welsh have a dislike for the english."
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It's Chester and it's any bow and arrow and only on a Sunday. Any Welsh man or woman in Chester on a Sunday night can legally be shot and killed with a bow and arrow!!

Hafwen,
never had you down as one of the language Taliban. Always thought you demonstrated a balanced and measured approach as you honestly and sincerely represented the language you clearly love. A far cry from the bitterness and hatred manifest in some of those who also occupy your position and use the language issue as a rallying tool in their jihard against the English.
At face value your suggestion seems reasonable.Two concerns:
1) positive discrimination is wrong
2) the multinationals who own and run modern retailing will only be interested if there is profit in such an innovation. Would there be?

Hi Eastwalian,

If you want to see rabid hatred, don't look at the English, look in the mirror.

Eastwalian,

I'd add 'crank' to the list

Good to see this blog had descended to the level of the playground!!
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Eastwalien happens to be right though, all you anti Welsh posters on here have used those terms for Welsh people on here that support the use of Welsh.
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Why is it, that you people can't live and let live, Welsh people do have rights too you know, including their language, you lot are really sad and pathetic.

LLew99

No problem with you speaking Welsh wherever and whenever you choose. No reason or wish to stop you.
Object to my money being spent on promoting the language and my two daughters learning it in school when they could be learning somthing more useful.
Just feel that there are more important issues that face the country - and with the economic down turn that will become even more apparent.
Please, use Welsh LLew99. But please don't use my taxes to promote the language and discriminate against me in the job market because I do not have Welsh.

What kind of a country would we have left if our unique language was dead?
Unlike Scotland or Ireland we don't have cultural traditions or native sports which differentiates us from England. I strongly believe this is why the language isn't as strong in the republuc of Ireland - they don't define themselves by language alone, and don't see it as important as Welsh Speakers.

In the modern Wales, appart from Rugby and Male voice choirs, our language is what defines us (like it or not), and is arguably what makes Wales & Britain a more attractive destination for tourists.

Emyr, Llew etc,

It is a pity Welsh speakers will not engage in sensible debate based on the realities of the situation in Wales. But no, you live in your own cloud-cuckoo land in which the English speaking majority in Wales either do not exist, or are an untermensch on whom you wish to force your language because it is the "true language of Wales".
Emyr - what is "anti-Welsh"? Is it the same thing as "anti Welsh language coercion". If so, then a large proportion of Welsh people, possibly a majority, are "anti-Welsh", which makes no sense.
Llew - where to you want to use Welsh? In Presteigne? Where local people have not spoken Welsh for hundreds of years? Do you demand Welsh-speaking staff in Pembroke post office? The perception amongst non-Welsh speakers is that you do, and this gets their backs up. The demands of the Welsh language lobby seem based on distorted missionary ideology rather than reasonableness. This is tricky in a liberal democracy. My guess is that some of you are not too keen on democracy if it hurts the precious language.

Llew,

Of course you have not remotely begun to answer my questions. I wonder if you are actually capable of reading my words. All you can bleat about is your "rights" as a Welsh speaker. Rights in a liberal democracy are what the government through the electorate decides they are. Or is there a missing eleventh commandment that Welsh speakers will have available on demand Welsh language services throughout Wales, in any context?

Again, and utterly characteristically, you fail to acknowledge the existence of the English-speaking majority in Wales. You refer to you - the English - and us - the Welsh speaking Welsh. There's a big hole isn't there Llew. But you can't allow yourself to admit it. The English speaking majority are an untermensch whom you cannot bring yourself to see.

Nobody is forcing welsh on anybody yes you have to learn it in school but its like you have to learn german or french in school Welsh like it or not is a language, a language of the old age and now its trying 2 become a language of the new age whats wrong with that? We are Welsh are country is Welsh the blood that runs through are veins is Welsh and like it or not are real language is Welsh.
Although you cant speak it becuase of the 100s of years of laws and murder and everything else forcing welsh people too follow english rule and you cant deny that never happened since the english empire took over half of the world look into the history books and it will give you the truth of what the english done.
Some of the language was lost but now its making a return.
Because you dont like seeing welsh & english signs it means they are forcing welsh on u?. You will probably be bias and read everything i typed and say your a nationalist you dont see it any other way blah blah blah yes i see it i see the whole PICTURE but do you lot see the whole picture or do you just think about your self? Only becuase you cant speak a language it means people that speak the language have to lose out on something? And yes the welsh language is here to stay may b the majority of people in wales speak english but more and more people are learning new languages welsh included everyday. So only becuase right now you see the welsh language looking weak it does not mean in years to come that the welsh language will b fully revived and most people around will b able to speak both english and welsh whats wrong with that?
You probably say oh your dreaming and say give it a few years and the welsh language will die thats bull as long as there is a welsh speaker the language will live. Alot of you are forgetting where your coming from and just looking for the easy root of just plain lazyness in speaking english 24/7 knowing well that your native tounge is welsh im guitly of that i cant speak a word of welsh my grandmother use to speak welsh too me when i was a kid but i never paid attention to it and always hated it but becuase i was to lazy to learn my native language it dont mean people that are learning and know it have 2 adopt 2 everything english.

Yes some jobs require you to speak welsh as do some jobs require you too know maths,english,etc so welsh is no different.So a company is biased if they want bilingual speakers? well wouldn't it b biased if they only wanted english speakers? after all we are living in WALES and also you cant deny the fact that some of the languages are lost from years of migration etc you have loads of different races living in wales and them different races some with their own language you go 2 their country and their own language is on their signs you come to are country Wales and are own language is on some of the signs and if we try and defend are country or defend are language or defend are selfs then your instantly labeled a nationalist? and also i am half english but yet i still take pride in my country's culture.
But these days if you do that your a nationalist your a terrorist your bias and the list continues and alot of the debate as well is saying get rid of the welsh language act and spend the money on better things? what better things The governments pockets? education? why education what does education get you these days? you can have all the qualifications in the universe and still end up working in a factory or sweeping street floors education cant promise you anything?
Hospitals? well the way the NHS has been lately they need alot more help then money.
Post Offices? give me a break may b some of you will take a post office over the welsh language and if your living in wales and thats the case then it just shows your ignorance and your lack of national pride. Im not saying the welsh language is what makes you all around welsh but its part of the welsh culture its part of being welsh.
As is money other country's who have their own native tongue and use it wales is no different too them apart from we are a conquered nation and till this day we remain a conquered nation but may b 1 day we will b a individual country? But wait becuase i said that i must b a nationalist i must hate the english and everything non welsh.
Give me a break i have family from all over but i live in wales this is where i am from this is where i was born and welsh is what i am i can go on forever but is there a point because this debate will never end becuase there's some many questions and so many answers and until the day wales is a free country we will always have problems and not see eye to eye the united kingdom is falling if not fallen apart. You cant deny that Ireland went its own way Scotland wants to go its own way and Wales wants too go its own way yes they say we would cease to exist and struggle etc etc but the truth is we are already struggling so what difference does it make. Yes we may struggle but you fight to make it better you try 2 improve the economy go your own root go your own way if country's like wales can stay afloat on their own nothing is stopping wales from staying afloat on its own either some of you might not like that but change sometimes can b a good thing.

It's not about hardship and disadvantage is it, why can't you understand, it's not difficult. All we ask for is the same basic rights as an englishman has in england, a German in Germany, a Frenchman in France, an Italian in Italy etc. etc. get it?? Chrikey, it's not hard for goodness sake, but lets be honest you don't really care about that do you, you just want to deny Welsh speakers any form of public service. As Dyson said originally, if you want to speak a funny language in private........................
Sums you people up pretty well I'd say.

Oh but I do care Llew99.
After all there is much to be worried about in our society.Let me describe one. Go and have a look at what our young people are doing, about now, in your local community. They will be easy to find - they will be 'down the park' or 'up the shops'. They will be routinely abusing alchol and using drugs.Go and talk to the local police officer who will have entered into a stand of with them unable to much about it. And this 'scene' will be repeated across the country from Anglsey to Barry.
I don't really care (you are correct there)whether they are talking (or swearing!) in Welsh, English or Swahili. But those young people represent our future. Proud of that Llew?
I don't doubt your sincerity or your determination. You are clearly a person of conviction - I just wish you would put your missionary zeal into something worthwhile - for this nations sake, go and help out at your local youth club. Then you might make a worthwhile contribution to the country you are so proud off.

Llew99,
So in answer to Border Dweller's question about what hardship and disadvantage you have experienced as a result of you're rights being denied, the answer is, errrrrrrrrrr none.

So why not, for goodness sake, spend the funding used to promote the language on something that might lessen hardship and disadvantage.

david, are you a bit thick?? I have already explained "what rights" as ahve others ad nauseum!! You and your ilk still refuse to accept we have any!!
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As for wasting money and spending it better, the Welsh language support costs a minimal amount when you put it against bombing Afghanistan and then paying them £50 million to rebuild a small part of it, or the money wasted in overseas aid every year that could help here, or indeed the Olympics which is costing the UK billions for the benefit of just a few, so don't talk about wasting money, there is a load more actually being wasted by the UK government.
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You and your sort always bleat about the cost while ignoring more obvious wastes of money elsewhere.

I have to concede that you are right Llew - I just don't get it. I really don't.
This winter it is likely that some elderly people, unable to afford to heat their homes, will die of hypothermia.
I'm deeply ashamed of that.
And you? .....well you are worried about which language you use when you buy your groceries.

Yep, I just dont get it. Grant you that.

On the contrary Eastwalien, I agree. I would route the funds that are going to that new school, and the £13 million going to the Welsh Language Board to the oldies.

One of the great and good (sorry I can't remember who it was)said 'you should judge a societly by how well it looks after it's vulnerable groups'
I'm sorry, i just don't see advocates of the Welsh language as a vulnerable group.

The reason that Border Dweller and like minded people don’t understand why Welsh speakers get frustrated about the fact that everyday services in their language are so restricted is because they have never experienced it themselves. You can get everything you want in English, and the only time you are likely to experience such a situation is when you go abroad, although the locals most probably switch to English when they see you struggle. So even when you go abroad, you don’t fully experience this scenario, as you can still get by in your mother tongue. Imagine if you couldn’t use your mother tongue, and having to face this situation every day of your life, not abroad, but at home in your own country. It is a fact that some parents don’t pass on the Welsh language to their children because they see it as a second-rate language, this perception is reinforced by the fact that so many services are not available in Welsh. So if you are against any rights for Welsh speakers, you may as well admit that you’d rather see the back of our native language, because without opportunities to use the language in the community, the language will deteriorate because no language can survive behind closed doors.
As for funding, what about the thousands of Polish and other immigrants to Wales who are benefiting from considerable subsidies to pay for English tuition? There is no such assistance for Adults from any nationality to help with the costs of learning Welsh. So yes, my taxes are being used to promote the English language! And regarding the teaching of Welsh in schools, there are many subjects that spring to mind that are of little value in later life, so why pick on Welsh? There are many adults all over Wales who regret the fact that they left school without a knowledge of Welsh. Why deny them that opportunity? Why should they later in life have to pay for lessons because they feel that they have missed out on something?

Arrrr, but don't forget Border Dweller's Declaration of Common Sense.

Article 1: When resources are scarce, spend funding on things that matter.

Article 2 : errrrr, that's it.

Gwyndaf
Do you accept that Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Somali, Iraqi, Kurdish, Eastern European minorities and other ethnic groups should have those same rights in Wales? I do hope so.

Oh dear, rather exposes your prejudice Llew99.
Plaid states 'that every person living in Wales is a citizen of Wales, wherever they were born, whatever the colour of thier skin and whatever their language ...... ' Guess they had to get somthing right.
You talk about a 'dumb post'. I find yours offensive.
Wales is a muilticultural society, and much the better for it.

Why does the blogger Gwentie try to educate Llew99, noble though that intent may be.
The racist mind is closed.

This shows quite clearly that gwentie et al, have a one agenda view on here, "attack the Welsh language". These comments show all too clearly that their only stance is against Welsh for some reason, quite happy for foreigners to these Islands to have their language rights, but not for the people who were the original inhabitants, how very strange, how very sad. I've never understood the animosity towards Welsh, maybe it's an intelligence thing, after all, the english can't stand anyone or anything that doesn't converse in their language can they!! Bloody foreigners!!

Here you go again "anonymous", claiming to speak for the majority of Welsh people, you don't.
Most Welsh people, be they Welsh or english speakers fully support the language and the efforts made to keep it alive and indeed to promote it. You do not speak for anyone except yourself, remember that will you.
The facts in Wales speak for themselves, Welsh medium education on a massive increase, pushed by the parents of children, parents that are predominantly english speaking, not pushed by fanatics as you like to call them or by Plaid Cymru, no, demanded by parents of children in Wales, so stop trying to convince every one you speak for Wales, you clearly don't. As for calling people racist, take a look in the mirror sometime, you'll find one staring back.

Anonymous, Emyr is merely demonstrating that Welsh Nationalists are, largely, the Welsh equivalent of the BNP. I notice, indeed, that not one of the Welsh language lobbyists on this blog has been 'quick' to condemn the racism expressed by either Llew99 or Craig. I sincerely hope to stand corrected.

"Do you accept that Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Somali, Iraqi, Kurdish, Eastern European minorities and other ethnic groups should have those same rights in Wales? I do hope so."

I wouldn't expect Welsh people living in London or Paris to have the same linguistic rights as they would living in Wales, so why should anyone else be treated any differntly?

I don't think anyone from Somalia or Iraq living in Wales would describe their new homeland as their 'respective territories'.

Do i condemn what Llew said

Llew99 said:

Quote:
"Gwyndaf
Do you accept that Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Somali, Iraqi, Kurdish, Eastern European minorities and other ethnic groups should have those same rights in Wales? I do hope so."
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Typically dumb post, it's not their Country is it!! Wales is the Country of the Welsh you muppet!!

^^ do i condemn that? No

Wales is are country it belongs 2 the welsh yes. but are people of other backgrounds welcome 2 come here and speak their own language yes of course as long as they respect are language like they expect us to when we go 2 their country's then yes they are more then welcome everybody has rights 2 speak what they speak. Now do those people have the same rights of course they have the same rights but not the same language rights as in a protection act they can use their language whenever they want where ever they want to whoever they want but the welsh native tongue is welsh so do we have a right to protect it of course we do if them same people were in their own country and had a act to protect their own language then you respect that 2.

Ok let me try and make it more Clear

Protect the welsh language with an act Yes Its are country's(Wales) native tongue it is are language.
Should people who move here from other country who speak another language be able to have the same act on their own language in wales No its wales they have the right 2 speak their language and teach their children and grand children their language but there is no need 2 protect it in a country that their not from.

You may see that as raciest or whatever but that just goes to show you how mad political correctness has gone wrong People of all races,religion etc are welcome to wales yes they have the same rights apart from the language protection act 2 protect the welsh language its WALES its are country we should b able 2 protect are own language whats wrong with that?

Do you see what i am trying 2 get at?

There is no need to be frightened. Sword of Truth aims to shed wisdom and enlightenment to all quarters.
And there is need. You have long since stopped listening to each other.

My comment wasn't any more racist than the ones posted by gwentie and the other aliases on here towards the Welsh.
To call my reply to the question is frankly, laughable and pathetic in the extreme compared with what has been said on here by people who hava a clear anti Welsh agenda. They have openly attacked Wrlsh people wanting "equality" for their langauge, while trying to make us believe that they value it for other monority languages, and maybe they do; but what does that equate to?, a morbid and weird dislike of Welsh for reasons best known to themselves.
My comment wasn't racist, you are trying to make it so, you are the racists, against the Welsh, as is the perpetrator of this blog.

Blimey Sword of Truth - moving you up from 'bit scary' to 'very scary.' Wish you'd hurry up and start 'shedding'

Thanks for responding Welsh Warrior - at least you had the courage of your convictions and declared yourself in agreement with the comment.
A sidestep from you Gwyndaff, now we Welsh are usually good at those. But you haven't got much room for manoeuvre, the statement was so stark. You know what Llew meant. It was patently racist. Are you certain you want to defend it? Do the right thing Gwyndaff.

Look Llew, ever heard the adage, when in a hole, stop digging. Who on earth are we supposed to belive the 'their' in your blog was if it was not the ethnic minorities the item referred to?
You really ought to apologise to our fellow Welsh citizens who originate from India, Pakistan and other parts of the globe. Some of these people in the Cardiff docks area are fourth generation Welsh. How dare you tell them this is not their country. And then to try and weasel out of it by claiming you meant somthing else. Reprehensible.Face up to what you said and give yourself some dignity by trying to put it right.

And just for the record and to clarify even further for the mentally challenged, if they're 4th generation then they are Welsh are they not???

For the record, I chose not to condemn Llew’s comment for the following reason. In his response to the rather bizarre post made by Gwentie, that non native minority languages that are spoken in Wales should have the same linguistic rights as our native language, Llew responded with “Wales is the Country of the Welsh�?, and my interpretation of that is that the needs of the Welsh people should come first in terms of the protection of their language, culture and way of life. I did not interpret his comment as a suggestion that immigrants to Wales should be booted out.
I have spent a few years living and working in the Republic of Ireland, and at no point did I ever expect any linguistic rights for my own language (Welsh). I respected the fact that I was in another country which had its own culture, and I had no problem with the fact that my taxes were used to promote the Gaelic language and help strengthen the identity of the country in which I had chosen to live in. In other words, the needs of Irish people came first in terms of protecting their identity, culture and so on, and I had no problem with that. If you move to live to another country it is your duty to integrate and respect their way of life. This does not mean that you are not welcome there or that you will be treated as an inferior.
And Gwentie, if you have a problem with bilingualism here in Wales, I find it very hard to believe that you would seriously be in favour of materials appearing in 10 or more languages! How can you honestly class a native language in the same league as a non native minority language, the idea is just ridiculous. If you want linguistic rights, you simply live in your home land, simple!
And to call Craig’s post racist! I have just quickly looked back at the insults used by some contributors to describe Welsh people who are in favour of linguistic rights in their own country. They include the suggestion that these people need counselling, referred to as zealots, Nazis, Fascists, nutters from the language Taleban, crank, loony and now racists! These are far worse than anything that Craig has expressed. I can see clear racism towards Welsh people on this blog, and I don’t recall anyone condemning that.

Afraid they have you by the short and curlies on this one.
Delve a little into the history of Tiger Bay. Try also to read 'Cymru Ddu' by Alan LLwyd. Available from the Butetown History and Art Centre. Start with the last chapter' I'm black, I'm Welsh'
It might help you understand why the statement was out of order.

Border Dweller

Are you also going to call The British Government racist for insiting that all immigrants living or moving to England learn English and can't have the same linguistic rights as English people?

Make your mind up Muppet what your argument is!

Thanks for the invitation to take the platform Gwyndaf. I could lay out my case again but there is little point. It won't change your mind.
I do, however, want to draw a line, for my part anyway, on 'Llewgate'
Llew made a mistake and entered a racist comment on this blog. He regrets it, as shown by his frantic attempts to claim he meant somthing else and by his 'shoot from the hip' hostility to anon and myself. Classic 'flight or fight' behaviour from a cornered individual
I am going to leave it at that now because it is not so much Llew on trial as the views of the group he is a member of. It's not edifying to see him trussed up like a spring chicken flailing about hoping he can bluff his way through this. Enough is enough.
So what about the group, of which you, of course, are a member. Now you know that Llew made a mistake. But instead of trying to disassociate yourself from the comment, as you were, in my view, morally bound to do, you decided to add to the collective smoke screen. Your post on the 23rd at 12.01 was a classic example of this. You tried to suggest Llew was actually calling a fellow blogger a 'muppett' for not understanding the UN declaration. Even llew in his desperation didn't try that.
Maybe you are lying to yourself Gwyndaf. You know what Llew meant - my guess is you were privately angry with him for lifting the lid - but you feel unable to condemn him.
So you know what he meant, and what irks you is that you know, that I know,that you know what he meant.
Now if that sounds smug, let me reassure you. If anything, I feel sad. Sad that this country of ours still has people who hold intolerant, prejudiced and, yes, racist, views.
Now that's it. I will not comment on Llew's post anymore.

Leave it now llew. Trust me. You are not doing our cause any good.

You have in your culture a tradition called 'pantomime'. During the entertainment the audience and the actors exchange comments 'oh yes it is' to which the other party automatically replies 'oh no it's not'. This is for amusement.

Sword of Truth has reviewed the contributions of the regular participants of this blog. We have found common ground.

You all have a love for Wales.

Sword of Truth will return in one calender week to review the progress of this blog.

They certainly wouldn't. Mind there is a daily pantomime in Cardiff Bay. It's called the WAG. But who plays Simple Simon?

Sounds like paranoic madness to me. Who on earth discriminates against Cornish people? And the National Curriculum makes provision for the teaching of local history and culture right across the UK. I think it's about time nationalists stopped disappearing in their own navels. There are people suffering from real problems on this planet, so grave that they don't have any need to invent a persecution complex to feel validated. Let's focus on those life and death issues of poverty and war and leave this ridiculous obsession with miniscule ethnic differences behind.

Hafwen

A few cranks on a website do not constitute "the Cornish". The language is actually extinct, but is being revived by a few hobbyists. "Forced assimilation"? They want to remain racially pure Cornish? I'm sure the average Cornishman or woman regards these people as the bunch of nutters which they are.

Gwentie, David and Banner have spelt it out to you Hafwen
Might it be time to question the values and ideology that underpin your cause?

Once got called a 'grockle' in Cornwall.

Yes, I would agree with you that life and death matters are more important than anything else. However, asking people to integrate into their new community does not equate to keeping “racially pure”. You are deliberately playing the race card instead of making any attempt to understand the issue. No one ever accuses the English of this “purity” business for example for expecting immigrants to learn their language and to respect their culture do they, now tell me, what exactly is the difference?
And for the record, I think you’ll find that Cornish history is not taught in Cornish schools for the simple reason that they are considered to be a county of England, hence the use of the term “assimilation”, which is in my eyes a form of discrimination, but that is another debate which I don’t wish to go into.
I think it’s been mentioned before, but we’re just going around in circles here where some individuals are determined to turn a discussion about minority rights into a racist issue.

Ah yes, here we go again, half a story to make the Welsh look bad again, how predictable!!
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This boy is a well known bad lad, convicted several times of violent behaviour, even against his own girlfriend, now sensibly an ex!! He may well have shouted abuse at this english family, he is one badly behaved individual, anyway what does it prove about Welsh speakers? Nothing!! More to the point, what does it say about you david, trying to make political gain yet again from an isolated incident!!! Would you like me to give you many, many more examples of english people racially attacking others??? I can assure you, my examples could stretch a lot further than yours!!!

Hafwen
The following project was introduced in 2003, linked in with the National Curriculum's aim of helping pupils to develop their own identity through an understanding of events at personal, local, national and international levels (http://curriculum.qca.org.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/subjects/history/History_and_the_national_curriculum_aims.aspx):
"Sense of Place" is a new project being developed by Cornwall LEA to link schools, communities and local history in creative way and help Cornish school children grow up with a strong sense of their own culture and heritage.

"Cornwall is a distinctive place. We have a fascinating history and a rich and diverse cultural heritage."

"The aim of the project is to develop a wide variety of cross-curricula creative projects which are based on events, people and places in Cornwall to help children extend their learning and their understanding of the place in which they live. "

In this unit children are introduced to the massively important period of the Cornish Diaspora as well as exploring notions of cultural identity, diversity and emigration; all whilst having good, creative fun."

The project "provides primary schools with specially written units giving a local perspective on the National Curriculum."

"The project has three main aims :

To develop the secure self-image of pupils in Cornwall as a precursor to accepting the diversity around us
To allow pupils to explore a distinctively Cornish perspective on historical events.
To give pupils an understanding of Cornwall as a special place, of the diversity that had led to its heritage and the many people who have contributed to its history.
A group of primary and secondary teachers have been working with officers from the LEA and with local artists to develop the units with a distinctive Cornish flavour which are currently being piloted in 11 primary schools."

I notice that such projects are still ongoing with Cornwall LEA. It seems to me that no one is telling the Cornish that they cannot study their own history.

Anonymous rather pathetically said:
[No no no, let's teach him to speak Welsh.]
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I suggest you grow up, what a childish and irrational comment to make, no surprise there though.

The above comment to gwentie was by me, I'm not afriad to put my name, just forgot!!

Emyr, it was sarcastic actually, admittedly not great, but sarcastic nonetheless.
Yes, I know, the lowest form of whit.

LOL another pathetic smear attempt from gwentie person like you tried to do with Llew99.
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My point was; this was an "isolated" incident from a guy who was a known nut job anyway and racist attacks agianst anyone in that area are rare never mind against the english, the english however have many cases of racially aggravated attacks daily across their Country.
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Of course, you knew that is what I meant but you still went ahead with your rather sad smear attempt, you're not worth the effort.

'the english however have many cases of racially aggravated attacks daily across their Country'.
-------------------------------------------------

Emyr- I'd be grateful if you'd explain how this is relevant.

Emyr,
You give yourself away when you use the words 'so called'.
you further give yourself away when you excuse him because of his difficulties with his temper

Says alot.

But, Hafwen, you were unable to condemn Llew99.
Afraid you were 'outed' then.

Seems the curtain is falling on your pantomime.
The Welsh language is protected by law and the democratic process that delivers such legislation. So the people who decry it should remember that it is the will of the majority who want it sustained.Their will should be respected.
However the issue is trifling and the suggestion that people are experiencing hardship, deprivation or disadvantage as a result of limited access to the language is ridiculous.Those that claim they are victims because of this issue should be ashamed of themselves. They do not know what genuine hardship is.

Only when the lyrics and images of this song are changed to include 'Welsh folk talking Welsh' will Sword of Truth return to this blogg.See

http://yeli.us/flash/fire.html

This should make some of you think twice!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j617mImHVvk

Thought you sneak back in and post more drivel without anyone noticing eh "Anonymous" or should that be "AnonymousE"
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You've been trying for hundreds of years to kill our language, you haven't succeeded so far and you never will, Cymru Am Byth!!

Anonymous

As any Welshman knows, the reality is